Design & Development: Magic Item Levels

[Voss]

What more do you need? The range in power in core feats is absurd.
Quicken spell allows for extra actions. Dodge gives a statistically insignificant bump in AC (against a single target, to add insult to injury). These things are nowhere near equal.
Thus, broken.

 

[TerraDave]

Hmm, Hmm, Hmm

First, direct implications and questions:

Will "constant upgrading" be expected? How will it be acheived? (Yes this is a 3red issue, but levels make it more explicit)

Will the item levels be in the PHB? Will players feel entitled to items of a certain level? (Yes this is a 3red issue, but levels AND magic items in the PHB, make it more explicit).

Different items that may work well for a charecter of level x are not of the same benefit to that charecter. Something like a ring of sustnance may pretty usefull for a wide range of levels, but at almost every level, there are "level appropriate" items that are more usefull. Are we just picking a random level for the flexible utility item versus the big immediate power booster?

Indirect implications

Is Santa on his way? As noted by Wolf R. this seems more old school then I want in this area (and I can be pretty old school)

And what if PCs don't have the items (or have too much): will this ever be addressed?

Crafting will be in the rules: I just wonder, did they get this right?

Stacking: In, gone, gone but we wish it is in, cause santa is coming back to town...?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

And yet, the core feats are broken down into roughly three categories.
Really good ( natural spell, power attack, quicken spell, item creation)
Average (disarm, expertise)
and so incredibly bad as to be laughable (dodge, a lot of the dual skill feats)

Any subsystem that can range from extra actions to a measly +1 bonus is pretty much broken by default.

Well, if IIRC correctly, Monte Cook wrote that they did these things on purpose. The idea was to awared "Rules Mastery". Someone understanding the rules would knew that the 3.0 Skill Focus feat was worthless, and that Dodge was only useful as the "enabler" feat for other feats, but meaningless on its own. Unfortunately, this approach didn't turn out so great, because those people that "mastered" the rules quick enough disliked worthless abilities.

Then why to unbalanced feats and spells come out of WotC on a regular basis?

There are two factors to consider:
How many of the feats, spells and classes that WotC created are really unbalanced from the ones that they created as a whole?
How many of them required a combination of abilities from multiple source books?
And how many were intentionally created to be more powerful than what came before (The PHB II feats seem to fall into this area), and are thus a result of a change in the design guidelines behind them?

I don't know exact answers, but I assume that most "broken combos" require more than just one of the books, and are corner cases.

Their is also a difference of thoroughness in writing the core rulebooks or writing a supplement. In a core rulebook, the designers/developers basicaly know every part.* When writing a supplement, they typically have the core rules in mind, but how much they know about every splat book, regional source book or campaign setting varies greatly. Which means that combos obvious to those that own and use these books

*) there is still one problematic area: Sometimes, they don't remember the most current rule, but have an older variant in mind. That's why it is sometimes difficult to expect a designer to know the RAW, because for him, it's just one variant of the system... Let's just hope the designers will not be too confused

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Something like a ring of sustnance may pretty usefull for a wide range of levels, but at almost every level, there are "level appropriate" items that are more usefull. Are we just picking a random level for the flexible utility item versus the big immediate power booster?

My guess would be that such items are judged according to "At what point do we want such an ability be widely available". That is more or less random, but there are a few guidelines:
What kind of adventures do I (still) want to play in this tier/level. A Ring of Sustenance could wreak havoc with low level adventures involving over-land travel, so it should probably be at least in the higher region of heroic level.
That is the art part.

 

[Corinth]

Umm... No? Making magic items requires the nebulous but expensive "magical components" that make up the entire cost of making a magic item outside of the actual item itself. If the GM does not allow them to purchase those components then their Item Creation feat would have been better spent on Toughness. Harsh, but frankly it would make perfect sense for the trade in 'components", whatever they are, to be regulated in a D&D world.

It also requires time, which some groups don't get a lot of to spare. It's actually been a fairly common complaint that Wizards don't get enough downtime to scribe spells and make items.

Groups can get all the time they need. All they have to do is turn to the GM and say "We're doing this now.", and that time is now available. As money has to be in hand to make items, that is a non-issue. Components will not be an issue unless the GM attempts to be a jerk, or he attempts to make it fun, by requiring that PCs acquire them through active gameplay; since most components for items can be had by purchase, legitimate restriction of components cuts down to just those elements that are both very rare and very dangerous to procure, such as a scale from an ancient dragon. (Why? Because the same economics that allow blacksmiths to not mine and smelt their own ore, or barrel makers to not cut trees and process lumber, will invariably arise in magical societies also; historically, and at present, the real world occultists did/do procure many of their components from middleman who in turn got them from suppliers that gathering or produced them- to shut this down for PCs isn't fair, just or belieable.)

 

[howandwhy99]

Sounds good to me.

Gold Piece prices and Level Appropriate ranges (they are ranges, right?). Both of those make sense.

Maybe the could include some Weight + Cumberance figures in there too for all Objects?

And do you think they'll include Power Equivalencies for judging actual PC Levels. You know, after adjusting for Total Wealth?
Ftr4 + 0gp = Ftr 3.3 or Ftr4 + 1000000000gp = Ftr 12.6.

 

[BryonD]

I'll love it if it's worthy of my love and I'll hate it if it's deserves that instead. I'd rather that I love it but I have no problem with sticking with 3.5.

lol I agree.

Right now it is sounding like 4E will be my second favorite RPG.
But I'm still hoping that some secret element is going to make the other stuff click.

 

[Sir Brennen]

Groups can get all the time they need. All they have to do is turn to the GM and say "We're doing this now.", and that time is now available.

Yeah, because all of my villains simply stop moving ahead with their plans, tapping their feet and looking at their watches while they wait for the PCs to come up with more equipment to defeat them with...

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

Yeah, because all of my villains simply stop moving ahead with their plans, tapping their feet and looking at their watches while they wait for the PCs to come up with more equipment to defeat them with...

Which is a lovely reason why the magic item crafting rules could use some work. Crafting time is rather overly long:

"What do you mean the campaign's over? I haven't even gotten my sword from the factory yet?!?!"

Brad

 

[fenzer]

Not to get too far off topic, but am I the only one who thinks the sketch in this article looks suspicially like a cross between a dwarf and a klingon? Not that images of cross breeding Worf and Gimli are healthy, but the image struck me as such.

Am I the only one who saw that? Do we know if the sketches appearing in these articles are in anyway an approximation of the artwork we will see in 4e?