Design & Development: Quests

[The Little Raven]

They aren't supported by the article, either, and Mearls' comments make it clear that these are supposed to be goals handed out at the beginning of the adventure/quest and are to be completed by the PCs.

Then, please, quote us the exact passage that states that quests are only handed out at the beginning of an adventure/quest/story/whatever and that you can never change them, introduce new ones, or throw them out. Please point out where the suggestions in the DMG override your ability to control your own game.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Fixed that for you.
*snip*

Adventure: A group of cultist have built a temple to Tuarn deity of corruption, near the village of Pellington. They have begun kidnapping certain villagers and the PC's have been comissioned to investigate.

Quest: Uncover and deal with the leaders of the cult of Tuarn near the village of Pellington. The archbishop would like you to turn them over, and has offered a reward.

FIFY.

The cult needs to be dealt with, and when the players decide to uncover and deal with it, *bing* they get a quest--which they define themselves by deciding to take the hook presented to them. The archbishop promises favours, cash, or something in return for prisoners. This is not connected to the quest, which is "deal with the cult," and so the XP award is not connected to the archbishop's request. The treasure that is associated with the XP award is also not connected. The archbishop's request, and the reward associated with it is either another quest entirely, which the PCs may or may not want to take on (and get XP and treasure for), or is a hook planted by the DM to further draw out the story of the cult: why does the archbishop want prisoners? Does he have a hidden agenda? Is it wise to hand over the cult leaders?

Now that the DM knows that the players are going to take on the cultist quest, he can write up the cultists and their hideout. The fact that the quest and its associated reward are written down on a card helps to ensure that the PCs won't get distracted and forget that they had intended to go smash the cult if, for example, they're already busy with the local bugbear problem. This means that the DM's work is less likely to go to waste. Rather than the DM railroading PCs using quests and quest cards, the PCs are deciding on a course of action and getting the "rewards" carrot dangled in front of them to get them to follow through on it.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

They aren't supported by the article, either, and Mearls' comments make it clear that these are supposed to be goals handed out at the beginning of the adventure/quest and are to be completed by the PCs.

So given that your claims are neither upheld nor specifically denied by the article, you choose to believe that the system is designed to act as an impediment to gameplay rather than an aid? Why have you decided to believe that? Do you think that they're deliberately trying to make a more restrictive narrative environment in 4E? Why? What would be the benefit to doing so? Do you suppose that the designers think that it would go over well if they did so?

And where do you get the idea that players can't define their own goals in 4E? You'll have to pardon my incredulity, but it sounds like you're just attempting to convince us that the sky is falling.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Advancing the main story (capturing the spies)
Advancing a personal story (gaining favor with the Archbishop)

You just described a major quest and a minor quest. Perhaps the PCs also have the minor quest "make sure the Archbishop doesn't get his hands on the cultist prisoners. We know he wants them because they have a secret ritual that will allow him to gain power over the Duke." Maybe they also have the quest "Don't bring them to the Archbishop. Bring them to us instead."

edit: Ah, I see you already suggested these quests. This stuff just writes itself, doesn't it?

Doesn't that sound like it could get interesting? And the PCs are right in the thick of it, their decisions having a major effect on the course of the story. The players will probably take note of how important they are, and will take their in-character decisions seriously (even if they're really reward-generated metagame decisions that just look like in-character decisions, for the loot- and XP-motivated guys at your table), leading to good gaming for all involved.

 

[Simia Saturnalia]

So given that your claims are neither upheld nor specifically denied by the article, you choose to believe that the system is designed to act as an impediment to gameplay rather than an aid? Why have you decided to believe that? Do you think that they're deliberately trying to make a more restrictive narrative environment in 4E? Why? What would be the benefit to doing so? Do you suppose that the designers think that it would go over well if they did so?

And where do you get the idea that players can't define their own goals in 4E? You'll have to pardon my incredulity, but it sounds like you're just attempting to convince us that the sky is falling.

Well, it comes from being in the 4e forum to show the great undecided that 4e isn't being, to quote, "blindly accepted". This often seems to require imagining the worst possible application of something described in a preview, then presenting it as fact. Agendas are being served.

 

[The Little Raven]

Well, it comes from being in the 4e forum to show the great undecided that 4e isn't being, to quote, "blindly accepted". This often seems to require imagining the worst possible application of something described in a preview, then presenting it as fact. Agendas are being served.

Agreed.

So firmly against 4e that they can't help but reinterpret everything they read as a negative, even if that reinterpretation goes so far as to make things up. Plenty of people have legitimate problems with the direction, but there are those that simply like being negative for negativity's sake.

 

[Jedi_Solo]

Ah, I see you already suggested these quests. This stuff just writes itself, doesn't it?

Shhhhhh... I may not DM that often but I have found one of the great secrets of the job.

I didn't get that much xp for it though...

 

[ThirdWizard]

Shhhhhh... I may not DM that often but I have found one of the great secrets of the job.

I didn't get that much xp for it though...

Reminds me of that commercial.

"Haha, DM's don't level up, stupid!" *high five*

The pay sucks, too.

 

[Simia Saturnalia]

Reminds me of that commercial.

"Haha, DM's don't level up, stupid!" *high five*

The pay sucks, too.

I believe it's "have levels", rather than "level up".

Grognards assemble! Did they ever, or was that just from the Tom Hanks movie?

 

[LostSoul]

See, i totally disagree with this method of DMing and doling out XP. What *I* think the players should do in completing the adventure is totally irrelevent. It is my job to create an interesting, engaging situation and then adjudicate around the PCs' actions and the die rolls. Extra XP for acting a certain way or doing a certain thing gets in the way of that.

I'm like that too. I don't want to hand out rewards for what choices I think the players should make.

It's the difference between player-driven games and DM-driven ones.

Will the Quest system promote/support/not get in the way of player-driven games? I think it will, even if you need to do a little tweaking to get it to work.

Of course some players like having specific goals and well defined predetermined courses of action. Those are the hardest people for me to DM for because we end up just staring at each other every time I say, "What are you going to do?"

This is why the Quest system, if robust enough, will be awesome. It can handle these types of player's goals and make it transparent.
"What do you want to do?"
"Where's the Quest card?"
"Oh... okay, here's one. Explore the crypt of Dodallah the Magnificent."

I also like the fact that I can give the players dilemmas: "Rescue the Princess so she can marry Duke Bundleswat" and "Make sure the Princess can't marry Bundleswat."

Or for exploration games:
"Discover the secret that lies in the heart of Fell Gorge that will only show itself during the next full moon."
"Take part in the ritual of Gorgonasta during the next full moon."

Or character-driven ones:
"Apologize to your father."
"Show your father you will never apologize to him."