D&D 5E Design Thread - "What makes a Knight?"

[kieran_of_the_dark_peaks]

Thank you to everyone for your feedback, it's been really useful and I've really appreciated reading it!

On the back of this conversation, I'm going to make the following changes:
Vow points will be regained on a long rest, not a resource to be managed. I agree with the statement that it will become too difficult to track them. (thank you @Laonu and @delphonso).
Vows are going to be renamed as Ideals, because then we can tie it into a core mechanic rather than re-inventing the wheel (thank you @permerton).
The Ideal which a knight embodies from the eight is going to give them a special ability based on that ideal.
The extra attack will come at level 5!
The quests for the Knight might well have benefits for the entire group, not just the Knight. (@Laonu)

I'm also thinking about making the Knight an INT led character, due to their training and understanding. I would go with CHR but then I think you're treading on the toes of Paladins too much. Thank you so much. I'll come back to you with the heraldry rules once they are expanded.

 

[delphonso]

Looking back on my post, it seems a bit curt - I forgot to mention that I like the idea of a knight class, more closely tied to heavy armor and being a good guy. I think there's space for it in DnD (for those opposed, think Warlock between Wizard and Sorceror).

I think Mercer's old gunslinger had grit points which could be recovered by tough actions like "felling a significant foe". A note to the DM about awarding vow points for knightly action might make a good variant rule.

Really like the idea of more Int characters.

An idea: a vow being a source of additional actions. A knight vows to protect some ally at the beginning of combat (a bonus action, perhaps). During the combat, the knight gets additional things they can do with reactions in relation to that vow (impose disadvantage, redirect a hit to themselves, swap places with ally, opportunity attack without leaving range).
This extra action is similar to the main front line classes (nova damage from Paladins and action surges from Fighters) but still tied to the knightly duties thing.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Dirk the Daring.

Q.E.F.D.

 

[billd91]

Find a copy of Pendragon if you can. LOTS of great ideas there.

I’m thinking the great passionate personalities should get some kind of treatment with storybook knights. Gawain’s impulsiveness, Lancelot’s treasonous love. They have strong characteristics that compel them to do some of the dumb things they do.

 

[kieran_of_the_dark_peaks]

Looking back on my post, it seems a bit curt - I forgot to mention that I like the idea of a knight class, more closely tied to heavy armor and being a good guy. I think there's space for it in DnD (for those opposed, think Warlock between Wizard and Sorceror).

I think Mercer's old gunslinger had grit points which could be recovered by tough actions like "felling a significant foe". A note to the DM about awarding vow points for knightly action might make a good variant rule.

Really like the idea of more Int characters.

An idea: a vow being a source of additional actions. A knight vows to protect some ally at the beginning of combat (a bonus action, perhaps). During the combat, the knight gets additional things they can do with reactions in relation to that vow (impose disadvantage, redirect a hit to themselves, swap places with ally, opportunity attack without leaving range).
This extra action is similar to the main front line classes (nova damage from Paladins and action surges from Fighters) but still tied to the knightly duties thing.

Not at all - the quality of the conversation here has always impressed me I got the impression of support, and thank you.

I like the idea of the Ideal having an action to defend someone as well, and that action could be specific to the ideal that the Knight is pursuing. That's a really nice way of giving them further abilities in combat, as well! I'll play with some ideas - watch this space to see what we come up with

 

[kieran_of_the_dark_peaks]

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[Benjamin Olson]

I think knighthood is something better treated in a game with a more developed social status mechanic. I actually like a lot of elements here, but I think some of the most interesting don't really require a class to support. "The Quest" really just means having more chivalric romance oriented quests in the game. I also think it is a little awkward given how the Paladin class has developed and that there are now three Fighter subclasses with knight in the title, not including cavalier, named after a synonym for knight, to shoehorn in a "Knight" class. Knight is also a background.

But, to treat the actual mechanical features:

Proficiencies: Not giving them light armor proficiency is a little weird, even if you don't intend for them to ever use it. Saving throws seem right on. Armorer's tools is a nice touch. Skill list is appropriate.

Equipment list: seems to have some unclear language, but I like that they start with a mount. Knights should stay away from anything so egalitarian as a light crossbow. I would give them a lance, shield, longsword and one additional martial weapon.

Vow points: Cool idea but I don't really like how these are implemented. For one thing I'm not clear on when you ever get more than two. For another, way too many abilities are drawing on this same resource, and honestly few of them seem like they have to be limited resource abiliites at all. The ways to regain are a mixed bag. I really like the idea of getting them through "single combat", but tracking your percentage of damage is complicated (especially for a DM dealing with resistances), so some other method of determining if it's single combat would be better.

Ironside: This is cool, but you need to not use the word reaction, unless they are spending their reaction. Reaction is a term of art in 5e. If they are spending their reaction, they probably shouldn't also be limited by vow points.

Challenge: Very cool, but remember that creatures often have personalities. It would be better if they just suffered a penalty for not answering your challenge (disadvantage? psychic damage?) rather than being absolutely compelled to drop everything and fight you. It's weird that this both costs and generates vow points. It is something that does need to be limited use, so the limited vow points resource makes sense here.

Leadership: This is cool. Why is it limited by both your level and vow points? Pick one.

Extra Attack: Should come at 5th level to be in line with all the other martial characters. 6th level is for bladesingers and battle bards. A second extra attack is stepping on the Fighter's toes in 5e, which is fine, but something else more unique for their third tier power boost (which should come at level 11) would be better. At least the extra attacks don't require vow points.

For Honor: Whether this is balanced or not really requires making it clearer how many vow points you have. You really shouldn't be able to do it more than about once a day at this level.

I won't go in to subclasses except to say that some of them just add like 5 more ways to use vow points and you really need to have fewer things running off this limited resource.

 

[NotAYakk]

How about hooking which mental stat to the subclass?

Do int, wis and cha based knights can all exist.

---

To make the Vow non-free, we could add compels from FATE.

And a way for a PC to renew it mechanically in combat.

Mercy might be renewed by replacing a killing blow with a fear effect, and if the creature gets away "free" you get a mercy point back.

Justice might be renewed by offering advantage to a creature who hurts an ally of yours. The point is regained if the ally survives and you get hit by the creature.

These are flavorful and not optimal combat actions that both exemplify the vow and act as a recharge option.

 

[Laurefindel]

A few things, in no order of importance.

- In 5e, you can technically deal nonlethal damage anytime with any weapon. Vow of mercy becomes less relevant. [edit] or as suggested above, you need to leave the enemy with at least 1 hp.

- There is no listed limit of Vow points. it says you start with 2 but For Honour! requires 3. Do you get more with levels?

- Class features are written using a relatively standard format in 5e. Look at the PHB class for model and wordage, but it goes something like this: first a short sentence of fluff (optional), then the level at which you get it, then what triggers the ability, then what it needs in terms of action and/or daily uses, then effect. Sometimes a rider is added to this, or limitations/immunities to the abilities. finally, the ability's refresh time, when necessary.

For example, the Ironside class feature could be written as follows:

Ironside
Knights are the epitome of armoured warriors and you can use this affinity to deflect otherwise dangerous strikes. At first level, when a creature that you can see within 60 feet hits you with a melee attack, you can use your reaction to expend one use of your Vow and roll a d4, adding the result to your AC for that attack and potentially causing the attack to miss you. You must be wearing heavy armour to use this ability.

D&D is usually written in American English, but I too prefer UK/Canadian spelling.

- Extra attack usually happens at level 5. When extra attack happens at level 6, it's because the extra attack is not part of the basic class and instead comes with a subclass. I don't see any reasons to break this pattern. Extra attack (x2) has so far been exclusive to the fighter, which I would tend to preserve. Some class get a damage boost, a circumstantial attack, or bonus action attack at level 11. I would go that route instead. Also, the 3rd tier starts at level 11, not 12.

Your class is has a lot of options, a pool mechanics, and a companion sub-system of quests and heraldic benefits. In itself this isn't bad, but it's a lot and it may need rationalisation. Let's look at the warlock for an example of "heavy-loaded" class:

level 1: pool point mechanics (pact magic). choice of patron (in effect this is the subclass)
level 2: choice of incantations among a given list. Some can't be selected yet due to level prerequisites
level 3: choice of specialty (pact boon, like blade, tome, or chain)
level 5: a boost on the level 3 ability in the form of incantation (some can be acquired before by swapping, but you get your 3rd incantation at lvl 5.

Pool mechanics (spell slots) increases in number and potency, gain additional invocation (some with level prerequisites) as the class progresses and daily use of spells as of level 11.

I would suggest incorporating the quests and heraldry fully into the class; that's the one novel element contributing to a character class that cannot be recreated by an existing class already. I wouldn't worry too much about the completion of the quest; being on the quest should be what counts. Maybe you could have some kind of achievement if you succeed, but in romantic chivalery, the quest itself is more important than the object of the quest.

So keeping with the warlock analogy:
level 1: select vow, vow pool mechanics
level 2: quest(s?) could start there. Use heraldry like the warlock use incantations.
level 3: choice of chivalric ideal
level 5: extra attack
level 11: bonus damage, circumstantial attack, single multiattack (like everyone around you), or bonus action attack depending on vow, quest, or chivalric ideal (pick one).

keep it contained, reduce the number of options, give those options significant benefits.

'findel

 

[NotAYakk]

Note that subclasses that have features at 11 or 17 should have a high power budget at those levels.

Or the main class should.

An example of a level 11 feature is paladin +1d8 damage radiant damage per attack.

Ignoring GWM type stuff, a basic attack deals 1d8+5 at level 11; getting +1d8 on 2 attacks is similar "damage budget" (bit smaller, because fighter has styles and feats and bigger weapons on top of it; as suits a half caster).

Clerics get a +1d8 damage buff depending on subclass, but only 1/turn. Their boost is smaller, as suits a pure caster is also getting level 6 spells at that point.

Well designed rangers, like Gloomstalker, get a serious buff at 11. Gloomstalker gets a "reshoot a missed shot"; that is almost another attack (but not quite). As suits a half-caster.