D&D 5E Designing a base gish class and possible subclasses

Paul Smart

Explorer
Hello everyone. D&D 5e is a great system, probably my favourite overall and I have played since the chainmail days. That being said, a base gish class is one of the few things that is missing. So let's talk about what should be in the base class and possible subclasses.

I see the following for a base class. Note these are just basic ideas.

Light armour - raised to medium armour as per suggestion
D10 hit points
A spell strike ability (hit with a weapon and have a spell effect go off)
Its own unique spell list
A choice of fighting styles
Half caster with 3 cantrips - starts with 2 with one added later as per suggestion.

Possible subclasses:

1) Knight - gets heavy armour and defensive spells
2) A ranged variation (Archer, Dagger thrower etc.) A better-designed Arcane Archer. Uses Medium Armour. -Changed to light armour as per suggestion.
3) An unarmed version based on touch attack spells. Basically an Arcane Monk in light armour. Gets more spells. - Can use weapons but is optimized around unarmed combat.

Help me expand on this. What would you like to see?
 
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Thaumaturge

Wandering. Not lost. (He/they)
Maybe different subclasses get different spells added to their spell lists, like cleric domains?

Thaumaturge.
 

I'm currently designing one called the Pendragon, who was mentored by a Mystical Guide (ala Merlin or something else) that taught them how to use spells/weapons in order to take on some kind of looming crisis of some sort. The core story is a hero trained in intellect and in arm. Sub-classes are called Destined Crowns, which have a 20th-level capstone ala a Paladin, and their main mechanic is spending spell lots for a temporary "magical rare" called Awakening Majesty. Don't have enough right now to share, but will be reading this thread with great interest!
 

Redwizard007

Adventurer
I'd like to see a subclass that expounded on the base class (light armor) build. Probably something involving better movement and quick attacks.

Also elemental and psionic subclasses.

Notes:
-3 cantrips seems excessive. That's better than the Druid, which is a primary caster. Just do 2.

-Primarilay, you need to turn multi-attack into "if you use your action to cast a spell, you may use your bonus action to make a single melee or ranged weapon attack," for this new class.

-you will want to design a number of spells that require the caster to "make a weapon attack" similar to Booming Blade. They should have a slightly weaker effect then other spells of their level since they include the attack.
 

Asisreo

Patron Badass
I've had one in the backburners called a "Blood Mage" which lets the caster enhance their attacks through blood they either sacrifice from themselves or pull from their enemies.
 

Paul Smart

Explorer
I'd like to see a subclass that expounded on the base class (light armor) build. Probably something involving better movement and quick attacks.

Also elemental and psionic subclasses.

Notes:
-3 cantrips seems excessive. That's better than the Druid, which is a primary caster. Just do 2.

-Primarilay, you need to turn multi-attack into "if you use your action to cast a spell, you may use your bonus action to make a single melee or ranged weapon attack," for this new class.

-you will want to design a number of spells that require the caster to "make a weapon attack" similar to Booming Blade. They should have a slightly weaker effect then other spells of their level since they include the attack.
I like your idea of expanding upon the base class with better movement and quick attacks. How would you build one?

The unique spell list can cover the elemental subclass. I do not think we need an entire subclass for that.

The psionic subclass would be covered under the base psionic class.

2 cantrips to start with another one added later seems good to me.
 

Yaarel

He Mage
I would have two kinds of gishes:
• A heavy-infantry Knight
• A light-infantry Skirmisher

The subclasses for each include magical and non-magical. For example, the magical subclasses for the Knight include Paladin, Eldritch Knight, and Psi Knight, and the nonmagical subclasses for the Knight include Samurai, Warlord, and Cavalier. Similarly, the magical subclasses for the Skirmisher include Ranger and Monk, and the nonmagical subclasses for the Skirmisher include a nonmagical Ranger, Gladiator, and martial-artist gymnastic Athlete.

The above is for a gish, combining the martial power source with magic.



However, a completely separate concept is a fullcaster who specializes in melee-range spells, with heavy magical defense and heavy magical damage and utility spills. This kind of fullcaster warrior is similar to the 4e Swordmage. The Bladesinger is somewhat like this, but the spell list would focus more on melee combat. This melee caster has a superhero vibe.
 

Tinker-TDC

Explorer
Light armour-How about light and medium for the base-class? Subclass can grant heavy for those who need heavy. It seems like a melee-focused class and giving light-armor alone seems like it would make it one of those classes where it only has finesse weapons. Medium as a base can help bridge that gap without the huge buff of heavy.

D10 hit points-Standard for a martial. Good

A spell strike ability (hit with a weapon and have a spell effect go off)-Would this best be expressed through specialty cantrips or does it need to be balanced for any spell stored in their weapon?

Its own unique spell list-Definitely a must to give it its own flavor. Likely a focus on buffs, reactions, and battlefield maneuverability. I'd focus long-range spells on single-target or small bursts and close-range can have more AOE type stuff for damaging spells.

A choice of fighting styles-Also standard for martials. Probably at level 2 for a half-caster.

Half caster with 3 cantrips-As others have said, maybe go with two and get more later. Booming blade/greenflame blade-types seem important. I'd also add here to put in a Fighting Style for another Cantrip similar to the Tasha's Cantrip fighting styles for Ranger and Paladin.

1) Knight - gets heavy armour and defensive spells-Solid. No complaints.

2) A ranged variation (Archer, Dagger thrower etc.) A better-designed Arcane Archer. Uses Medium Armour.-If it's the archer build why is it using medium armor instead of light? Seems like the one most likely to go light armor since maxxing DEX would be the playstyle.

3) An unarmed version based on touch attack spells. Basically an Arcane Monk in light armour. Gets more spells.-Would it be unable to use weapons or would the fighting style just be making it more efficient for it to be unarmed? Also why would this one be the one to get more spells?

Subs discussed elsewhere:
The Psychic: Possible unarmored defense (INT), doing Jedi/Gish type stuff (jump, mage hand, telekinesis, parrying ranged attacks out of the air.)
The Avenger: Divine flavored striker-type. Probably domain spells off the cleric spell list. Named as such from the 4e class and might be better as a paladin subclass but I feel like it fits here better than Paladin.
The Blink Dog: Could fit into any of the other fast and striker-y roles. Goal is maximizing mobility through magic through an at-will teleport (I'd say make it the prime subclass feature and have the distance grow as you gain levels, maybe towards the end allow all movement to be teleportation. Blink spell as a must.
The Channeler: Based off of your #3, the one who focuses more towards magic than weapons. Possibly getting the Wizard's "Arcane Recovery" so it has more spells per day but is not on a different spell-progression than the others.
The Kensei: (change this name obviously) The one who from an outside perspective might look less magical than all the others and uses their spells almost exclusively to buff their fighting rather than anything flashy like shooting fire from their fingertips. Ideally implemented as smaller buffs for the whole battle rather than big spikes like the paladin smite.
The Shadow: The stealth version that stalks their prey before attacking. Somewhere between ranger, rogue, shadow-monk, and Witcher. This might be achieved just within the main spell list and not need to be its own subclass.

I do like the idea of at level 5 instead of getting Multiattack like most martials you get an ability to make a weapon attack as a bonus action if you cast a spell as your action.

For arcane channeling into a weapon I'd say go with an "As a bonus action you can expend a spell slot to begin channeling arcane energy into your weapon. For the next five minutes the weapon is considered magical and deals an additional 1d4 (elemental your choice) damage on a hit (could start with the 5 that are usually the elemental options and then have subclasses grant options like the holy subclass adding radiant and the shadow adding necrotic).
When you use a 2nd level spell slot the extra damage becomes a d6, when you use a 3rd it becomes a d8, 4th d10, 5th d12. This effect ends early if you fall unconscious. You may end this effect early as a bonus action.
At 11th level you can do this at-will as a d4 without expending a 1st level spell slot. At 17th level you get a d6 added on for free.

Might add in an ability that gives advantage on Concentration checks to maintain a spell that targets only you so buffs are more reliable but you don't get to keep a debuff going as easy.
 

Redwizard007

Adventurer
I like your idea of expanding upon the base class with better movement and quick attacks. How would you build one?

The unique spell list can cover the elemental subclass. I do not think we need an entire subclass for that.

The psionic subclass would be covered under the base psionic class.

2 cantrips to start with another one added later seems good to me.

If I was really going to build this out, instead of treating it like a brainstorming exercise...

Level 1 - (base class ability) - your spellcasting focus is any one handed weapon.

Level 3. - You may charge your body with magic for a number of minutes equal to your proficiency modifier. While so charged you gain the following benefits.
Any time you make an attack as a bonus action, you may also dash or disengage as part of the same action. You may add your Intelligence modifier, if positive, to the damage rolls of all attacks you make with a light melee weapon. This ability can only be used when wearing light or no armor, and not wearing a shield. You may use this ability twice per long rest at 3rd level, 3 times at 6th level, 4 at 12th, and 5 at 17th level.

Level 5 - (base class ability) modified extra attack - when you cast a spell or cantrip as an action, you may make a single weapon attack as a bonus action.

Level 7 - when using the attack action and wielding a light weapon you may teleport up to 15' as a bonus action.

Level 11 - (base class ability) modified extra attack - when you cast a spell or cantrip with your action, you may now make 2 attacks with your bonus action.

Etc.
 

jsaving

Adventurer
Why not use the PF2e magus? It sounds similar to what you're looking for.

Or if not, you might consider explaining why you don't like its direction and how you think your ideas are better. That might perhaps be more productive than reinventing the very wheel the PF2e devs were trying to address.
 
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