RangerWickett
Legend
Well, aspersions to my game aside, what would you have done differently?
D&D 5E Designing a fantasy army in 5th
- Thread starter RangerWickett
- Start date
Assuming that you rolled the pixies attack on the scouts and that they really were able to take them out in one round I would have the army pull back as soon as they were attacked instead of staying on the killing field. Thats especially true for the wizards as the first attacks showed that the spellcasters are specifically targeted. I might have even send advance scounts to the other river bank and expected their return before marching, considering how good a ambush spot that is. As far as the army knew half the village could have hidden in that woods. I also find it strange that they had defenses against area spells (not that it did them any good against area spells), but not against invisibility. Except of course the erinyes who still failed to notice the approaching bard.
And from your account is sounds like the army was marching in a rather unrealistic tight formation which allowed the confusion spells to hit most soldiers instead of just 10-20. What were the other 80 doing?
RangerWickett
Legend
I'd decided that the hostile force had done divinations before they set out for the party's town, and were confident no one in the village knew they were coming. (It was a month-long trip out to the hinterlands, and the party learned about their approach only after the group had set out.) I figured each day the Pontiff would cast divination to see if anything would threaten him personally in the next 24 hours, and that he used a fair number of spells casting sending to coordinate his conspiracy back in more settled lands.
The plan was fairly simple. The item they needed to bind the demon was near this town, and it was dangerous for a person to handle it because they might go made. So the Pontiff brought enough people to cow a small town. They'd march in, take control, and then the Pontiff and his specialists (four 7th level wizards, an 11th level bard, an 11th level transmuter, and a 9th level fighter; plus he's a 15th level cleric) would go get the item and perform the ritual. The PCs were an unanticipated snag.
The day before the ambush, I ruled the Pontiff got the warning that an invisible talon would strike from above (the party had already dubbed their attack 'operation bloodtalon'), so he bound an erinyes to keep watch. He did a follow-up divination about how large the hostile force was, and learned that it was about 20 foes.
I decided that the beast's howdah was enchanted to act as an arrow catcher, so any ranged attacks against the Pontiff would not be a threat. His AC was high, he had as good saves as I could manage, something like 80 HP, and had cast death ward on himself. He figured that whatever tried to get him, he could survive, and then the army would take it out. I considered a variety of defensive spells, but almost nothing in 5e lasts more than a few minutes, so the spellcasters would have to just wait for the attack and then counter-attack.
The army marched like this (each group was typically 4 abreast):
- = 10 ft. gap
A = 10 arcane trickster archers
E = 10 eldritch knight pikemen
S = supply cart, ox, 2 pikemen
I = illusionist w/8 pikemen
C = conjurer w/8 pikemen
T = transmuter & bard w/8 pikemen
V = evoker w/8 pikemen
P = Pontiff atop huge beast, with erinyes and 2 pikemen
N = enchanter w/8 pikemen
A = 10 more archers
H = horse scouts
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Basically it was a column about 300 feet long. They were expecting an attack at some point during the day, and had scouts out who were able to cast silent image to light up the sky if they spotted anything. The pixies were clutch for the party.
Surprise Round: Once the column got to the hill, the centaurs broke from cover and fired two shots each, and the warlock mezzed the groups marked N and A at the front of the column. Then they rode out of range of most spells, and back behind cover.
Round One: The army gets off the road and presses up against cover (retreating would have been less advantageous, since the ox-drawn carts of supplies would not have handled the confusion well; better to get to cover and count on superior firepower). The pontiff figures he has a solution against archers and readies blade barrier to stop the next volley. The erinyes fires off a few shots. An earth elemental gets summoned at the front of the column and attacks the riders.
At this point, the bard (invisible and with cover from brush) breaks cover and flies down to beside the huge beast. She figured someone might have see invisibility and wanted to use the monster's body as cover. I ruled that since the erinyes was distracted by shooting at the centaurs, it was possible to get from cover to cover without being spotted, and the bard rolled Stealth and beat the Erinyes's passive perception.
Round Two: The eldritch knight pikemen at V and T blast the elemental with magic missiles. The rest of the army is alerted that there are probably forces on the other side of the road, so they start marching through the brush. Then a sleet storm goes up to slow their approach.
The erinyes keeps shooting at the fleeing warlock, and takes out his centaur steed. That's when the PC bard snatches the pontiff and flies back and high enough that the party, who is on the far side of the hill with readied actions, takes him out in one round.
Round Three: The bard gets the Pontiff to the party, and they deliver a coup de grace, just in case. The party actually gets overconfident and tries to kill the erinyes, but then the army makes it to the edge of the sleet storm in the heavy brush. They know that next round the army will have a clear shot at them. Worse, some mages teleport in and mezz a few PCs.
Round Four: Luckily the caster PCs and NPCs (who all had dimension door prepped) teleport the group away.
Less than thirty seconds.
The plan was fairly simple. The item they needed to bind the demon was near this town, and it was dangerous for a person to handle it because they might go made. So the Pontiff brought enough people to cow a small town. They'd march in, take control, and then the Pontiff and his specialists (four 7th level wizards, an 11th level bard, an 11th level transmuter, and a 9th level fighter; plus he's a 15th level cleric) would go get the item and perform the ritual. The PCs were an unanticipated snag.
The day before the ambush, I ruled the Pontiff got the warning that an invisible talon would strike from above (the party had already dubbed their attack 'operation bloodtalon'), so he bound an erinyes to keep watch. He did a follow-up divination about how large the hostile force was, and learned that it was about 20 foes.
I decided that the beast's howdah was enchanted to act as an arrow catcher, so any ranged attacks against the Pontiff would not be a threat. His AC was high, he had as good saves as I could manage, something like 80 HP, and had cast death ward on himself. He figured that whatever tried to get him, he could survive, and then the army would take it out. I considered a variety of defensive spells, but almost nothing in 5e lasts more than a few minutes, so the spellcasters would have to just wait for the attack and then counter-attack.
The army marched like this (each group was typically 4 abreast):
- = 10 ft. gap
A = 10 arcane trickster archers
E = 10 eldritch knight pikemen
S = supply cart, ox, 2 pikemen
I = illusionist w/8 pikemen
C = conjurer w/8 pikemen
T = transmuter & bard w/8 pikemen
V = evoker w/8 pikemen
P = Pontiff atop huge beast, with erinyes and 2 pikemen
N = enchanter w/8 pikemen
A = 10 more archers
H = horse scouts
****************light brush*************PCs - PCs****light brush****
^^^^Hill^^^^^^****heavy brush*****^^^^^^^^^^Hill^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^Hill^^^^^^****heavy brush*****^^^^^^^^^^Hill^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^Hill^^^^^^****heavy brush*****^^^^^^^^^^Hill^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^Hill^^^^^^****heavy brush*****^^^^^^^^^^Hill^^^^^^^^^^^
**********************light brush*******************************
(rear) A - E - S - E - S - E - S - E - S - I - C - T - V - P - N - A - H (front)
**********************light brush*******************************
==========RIVER==============================================
=================RIVER=======================================
==========================RIVER==============================
=================================RIVER=======================
========================================RIVER================
===============================================RIVER=========
======================================================RIVER==
**********************light brush*******************************
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@forest@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Basically it was a column about 300 feet long. They were expecting an attack at some point during the day, and had scouts out who were able to cast silent image to light up the sky if they spotted anything. The pixies were clutch for the party.
Surprise Round: Once the column got to the hill, the centaurs broke from cover and fired two shots each, and the warlock mezzed the groups marked N and A at the front of the column. Then they rode out of range of most spells, and back behind cover.
Round One: The army gets off the road and presses up against cover (retreating would have been less advantageous, since the ox-drawn carts of supplies would not have handled the confusion well; better to get to cover and count on superior firepower). The pontiff figures he has a solution against archers and readies blade barrier to stop the next volley. The erinyes fires off a few shots. An earth elemental gets summoned at the front of the column and attacks the riders.
At this point, the bard (invisible and with cover from brush) breaks cover and flies down to beside the huge beast. She figured someone might have see invisibility and wanted to use the monster's body as cover. I ruled that since the erinyes was distracted by shooting at the centaurs, it was possible to get from cover to cover without being spotted, and the bard rolled Stealth and beat the Erinyes's passive perception.
Round Two: The eldritch knight pikemen at V and T blast the elemental with magic missiles. The rest of the army is alerted that there are probably forces on the other side of the road, so they start marching through the brush. Then a sleet storm goes up to slow their approach.
The erinyes keeps shooting at the fleeing warlock, and takes out his centaur steed. That's when the PC bard snatches the pontiff and flies back and high enough that the party, who is on the far side of the hill with readied actions, takes him out in one round.
Round Three: The bard gets the Pontiff to the party, and they deliver a coup de grace, just in case. The party actually gets overconfident and tries to kill the erinyes, but then the army makes it to the edge of the sleet storm in the heavy brush. They know that next round the army will have a clear shot at them. Worse, some mages teleport in and mezz a few PCs.
Round Four: Luckily the caster PCs and NPCs (who all had dimension door prepped) teleport the group away.
Less than thirty seconds.
Less than thirty seconds, a completely useless "Anti Invisibility" measure despite the army being specifically warned about an invisible threat, the same army going completely blind and an army leader who thinks the best place for him is directly at the front line during an ambush waiting instead of going to safety. But that might be in character for a leader who seems so unconcerned that on the way to a town which did not know he was coming he would get attacked by an invisible talon from the sky all of a sudden...
Am I right to assume that the scouts, despite the threat of invisibility, were not able to counter invisibility?
It is of course your game and if you want to ensure that the PCs succeed by giving them every advantage possible, including NPCs with magical items, you are free to do it. I just wonder why you then even asked for help with the army when you already decided the result of the PCs plan.
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RangerWickett
Legend
How are you supposed to counter invisibility in 5e? I mean, see invisibility lasts a few minutes.
I thought the party was clever to have a misdirection in the form of one ambush before springing the real one. If they'd just swooped straight in, the erinyes would have seen the PC and killed her.
And honestly, the thread was both to say, "Here's my idea; any suggestions?" and to see if other people had thoughts of how a fantasy army should be designed.
I thought the party was clever to have a misdirection in the form of one ambush before springing the real one. If they'd just swooped straight in, the erinyes would have seen the PC and killed her.
And honestly, the thread was both to say, "Here's my idea; any suggestions?" and to see if other people had thoughts of how a fantasy army should be designed.
So far as I can tell, you used advice from EnWorld to put together a strong challenge. A PC team with a lesser plan and/or lesser on-the-fly adjustments would have failed, maybe even TPKed. This team succeeded, and has a success worthy of pride and celebration. So hurray for the players, hurray for the DM, and hurray for those who helped!
Too bad for the evil NPCs. Well, you can't win them all.
Too bad for the evil NPCs. Well, you can't win them all.
Quickleaf
Legend
Very cool play account, thanks [MENTION=63]RangerWickett[/MENTION], I was looking forward to hearing how this scenario turned out for you guys! I was surprised at how soundly the PCs dominated things, even without using the silence on the bard tactic, and had expected the mage bad guys to offer stiffer opposition. Just goes to show we should never underestimate the ingenuity of players! 
RangerWickett
Legend
Also, 7th level wizards don't have that many hit points, and their AC is crap during a surprise round.
pogre
Legend
I thought you did very well and it read like a great fight. You said "yes" a lot and I bet your players really enjoyed the encounter. Monday morning quarterbacking all of us could have made the foe more difficult to overcome, but I know my players would have loved to have executed a plan like this and pulled it off. Reads like you made a great gaming memory - congrats!
JoeCrow
Explorer
Yeah, I think people underestimate how much damage can get done by a small team of mid-level PCs when they have the drop on their target, and the good sense to book it before their enemy gets their shizz together. And all it woulda taken was a couple of bad rolls on the players side to end up with a TPK.
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