Designing Non-Combat Encounters
- Thread starter Greatwyrm
- Start date
Christopher Lambert
First Post
Greatwyrm said:
D20 Modern has some decent rules for this... you get less XP than for combat encounters, but since the cash/encounter system is very different (eg go ahead and ignore it, since your character is more important than gear) it'll work better.
You use the CR of the "opponent" but you use 1/4th of their CR (no, not 1/4 of the gained XP) for the encounter. Of course, if you should have spoken to them but instead kicked their butt, you still only get XP as if they had 1/4 CR so be careful about that
It's probably better for DnD purposes to use a fraction of XP (at full CR), however.
However, the biggest problem I have with these encounters are the devaluation of the social skills, especially Diplomacy. I suggest finding Rich Burlew's house rules for Diplomacy (www.giantitp.com/Func0010.html)
If you ever had to subvert a spy or something like that... well, just follow the link and think about the risk/reward ratio.
full xp
I have run several adventures in which the module calls for full award of xp for successfully negotiating with an NPC and for only a fraction if the NPC is slain outright. I think it's a great mechanic, and I have followed it for some time. In my mind the experience is gained by overcoming the challenge, which may or not be through the use of force. I think it's very appropriate to give full xp for a non-combat encounter--just as the DMG assigns CR to traps that are overcome.
I have run several adventures in which the module calls for full award of xp for successfully negotiating with an NPC and for only a fraction if the NPC is slain outright. I think it's a great mechanic, and I have followed it for some time. In my mind the experience is gained by overcoming the challenge, which may or not be through the use of force. I think it's very appropriate to give full xp for a non-combat encounter--just as the DMG assigns CR to traps that are overcome.
der_kluge
Adventurer
I think a good challenge really relies on your PCs.
I mean, if your PCs are all built as warrior/tanks and don't care anything about social encounters, then the most subtle, well-crafted social encounters are going to be completely lost on them.
In the game we played today, for example, my cloistered cleric faced an interesting challenge that I really appreciated. Few dice were rolled. We were to apprehend a villain that had committed crimes, and his reward was a substantial amount of money to us (1st level PCs). My character is a mendicant, meaning he is a begging priest, who carries only a staff essentially. So, while he's "good" in the medieval sense of good, that implies that it's for the greater good, and doesn't necessarily coincide with our modern interpretation of good.
Anyway, we confront the guy and he offers to pay my character the same amount as his reward, plus a promisary note worth an equal amount. I struggled with this for quite some time, but under the circumstances it seemed like the best outcome, since I'd be able to feed twice as many people, and this man had already endured much (he was fleeing the country). So, that was my course of action.
Point it, if my character were a Barbarian, I'd probably have just smashed his skull in, so there wouldn't have been much to the encounter other than that.
I mean, if your PCs are all built as warrior/tanks and don't care anything about social encounters, then the most subtle, well-crafted social encounters are going to be completely lost on them.
In the game we played today, for example, my cloistered cleric faced an interesting challenge that I really appreciated. Few dice were rolled. We were to apprehend a villain that had committed crimes, and his reward was a substantial amount of money to us (1st level PCs). My character is a mendicant, meaning he is a begging priest, who carries only a staff essentially. So, while he's "good" in the medieval sense of good, that implies that it's for the greater good, and doesn't necessarily coincide with our modern interpretation of good.
Anyway, we confront the guy and he offers to pay my character the same amount as his reward, plus a promisary note worth an equal amount. I struggled with this for quite some time, but under the circumstances it seemed like the best outcome, since I'd be able to feed twice as many people, and this man had already endured much (he was fleeing the country). So, that was my course of action.
Point it, if my character were a Barbarian, I'd probably have just smashed his skull in, so there wouldn't have been much to the encounter other than that.
painandgreed
First Post
Well, two two measureing sticks could be difficulty and risk, and from there break it up to various criteria.
For difficulty, the CR is judged by the difficulty of the action either due to the number of rolls made or the high DC of the rolls. Figure a diplomatic mission where the characters must end a feud between two rival families to continue on with their actual quest. The CR for appropriate non-combat tasks are decided upon by the total number of rolls required in the DMs opinion. Assume the average party should defeat their equal CR monster in combat with 10 total rolls (total guess for the sake of arguement) or actions between all party members. Then any non-combat encounter that requires 10 rolls between the party members is an equal CR to their level. The estimated number of rolls required is left up the DM and if the PCs botch it or do a wonderful job, then they deal with the results. A fractional or multiple number of rolls results in a fractional or multiple CR rating. Another criteria could be difficulty of individual rolls. Just as a single crit may do enough damage to kill a monster, a single lucky roll may justify a CR value or be worth several rolls if using a total roll system. An example would be a rogue trying to bluff a city official for favorable outcome for the party which is not part of some other overall encounter. Although should he fail, it would not mean anything more than he is ignored but in succeeding in a roll that he normally would not be expect to win, has "defeated" the encounter.
Another choice is to determine the estimated risk or reward. GP value is the easiest measuring stick. A role played financial deal netting 300 GP profit would be a CR 1 encounter as per the treasure normally expected per CR value. Similarly, anything risking 20% of the parties resources would be considered of an equal CR value to the party. Such things such as social encoutners where things can turn against the players in a non-combat way will have to be judged by the DM. Thus an encounter where a character is at a party and attempts to bluff the city official risking making him an enemy, being kicked out of the city, or havign to act under regulations that would make things more difficult would be worty of a CR rating.
For difficulty, the CR is judged by the difficulty of the action either due to the number of rolls made or the high DC of the rolls. Figure a diplomatic mission where the characters must end a feud between two rival families to continue on with their actual quest. The CR for appropriate non-combat tasks are decided upon by the total number of rolls required in the DMs opinion. Assume the average party should defeat their equal CR monster in combat with 10 total rolls (total guess for the sake of arguement) or actions between all party members. Then any non-combat encounter that requires 10 rolls between the party members is an equal CR to their level. The estimated number of rolls required is left up the DM and if the PCs botch it or do a wonderful job, then they deal with the results. A fractional or multiple number of rolls results in a fractional or multiple CR rating. Another criteria could be difficulty of individual rolls. Just as a single crit may do enough damage to kill a monster, a single lucky roll may justify a CR value or be worth several rolls if using a total roll system. An example would be a rogue trying to bluff a city official for favorable outcome for the party which is not part of some other overall encounter. Although should he fail, it would not mean anything more than he is ignored but in succeeding in a roll that he normally would not be expect to win, has "defeated" the encounter.
Another choice is to determine the estimated risk or reward. GP value is the easiest measuring stick. A role played financial deal netting 300 GP profit would be a CR 1 encounter as per the treasure normally expected per CR value. Similarly, anything risking 20% of the parties resources would be considered of an equal CR value to the party. Such things such as social encoutners where things can turn against the players in a non-combat way will have to be judged by the DM. Thus an encounter where a character is at a party and attempts to bluff the city official risking making him an enemy, being kicked out of the city, or havign to act under regulations that would make things more difficult would be worty of a CR rating.
knifespeaks
First Post
This is one reason why I have become converted to the 'xp-less' system, in which the DM advises players when they have levelled up - makes assessing this sort of situation heaps easier - although it does have its limitations.
Jeff Wilder
First Post
If a non-combat encounter is a challenge that the players can or must overcome in furtherance of the adventure, I reward based on the CR system, but generally with an ad hoc discount based on the importance of the encounter and the risk. Generally speaking, an encounter in furtherance of the plot gets about 25% of the appropriate EL for the group. (I.e., a 7th-level group would average 25% of the XP they'd get for defeating a CR 7 combat encounter.)
One thing I've been careful to do with non-combat encounters is to make sure that they don't hinge on only one or two rolls, which if especially lucky or unlucky can make the encounter too easy or difficult. Combat encounters generally require several rounds of d20izing before a victor emerges ... I've started trying to make sure the same is true of my non-combat encounters.
Another thing I've started doing is sometimes requiring two or more different approaches to dealing with a given NPC. E.g., Gregson the shady jeweler-fence may need to be Diplomacized into buying the parties very hot stolen merchandise, then Intimidated into not telling anyone who asked who sold him the loot.
I also occasionally give my NPCs their own angles they're working on the PCs; the difficulty with this is that I very much dislike having the dice tell a PC how he or she feels about a given situation or person. DMs who share that reservation will need to learn how to hide behind a poker face, or even how to subtly project (possibly false) information through body language for the clever players to pick up on. It's a difficult skill to master without a lot of practice, so in most games the PCs have a much greater upper-hand in the social arena than they probably should.
One thing I've been careful to do with non-combat encounters is to make sure that they don't hinge on only one or two rolls, which if especially lucky or unlucky can make the encounter too easy or difficult. Combat encounters generally require several rounds of d20izing before a victor emerges ... I've started trying to make sure the same is true of my non-combat encounters.
Another thing I've started doing is sometimes requiring two or more different approaches to dealing with a given NPC. E.g., Gregson the shady jeweler-fence may need to be Diplomacized into buying the parties very hot stolen merchandise, then Intimidated into not telling anyone who asked who sold him the loot.
I also occasionally give my NPCs their own angles they're working on the PCs; the difficulty with this is that I very much dislike having the dice tell a PC how he or she feels about a given situation or person. DMs who share that reservation will need to learn how to hide behind a poker face, or even how to subtly project (possibly false) information through body language for the clever players to pick up on. It's a difficult skill to master without a lot of practice, so in most games the PCs have a much greater upper-hand in the social arena than they probably should.
