D&D 5E Desperately need help, trying to catch up to party.

bid

First Post
Goliath Barbarian averages, about 100 damage per turn.
A level 8 frenzied barbarian with GWM and Str20 will do 2d6+17 per attack.
Since missing once is more likely than critting once, I'd be surprised if it reaches 72 damage per turn.

You might have rounded up his best round, but considering you managed to get expertise in athletics I'm not surprised the numbers don't match reality. You really are deep in la la land.
 
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Stalker0

Legend
As mentioned above, the DPR from the rest of your party is way off from what it should be. The Rogue only has 4d6 sneak damage. Even if it crit every round, it would only be a little over half of that much DPR.
If the Barb uses a Greataxe, and crits every attack(3 at most), it would only be able to deal 6d12(42 damage) + Str, rage damage(+2), and magic bonus damage. Let's assume his Str is 20 and has a +2 magic weapon. That's 27 more damage for 42+27= 69 damage total. Now we can add GWM feat for 30 more damage. That brings it to 99 damage per turn with a lot of assumptions. (Frenzy Barb, GWM, +2 Greataxe, every hit is a crit, etc...)

This shows it well. The other players cannot be doing the DPR listed without some complete breaks in the rules, or some crazy powerful custom magic items. Even with the best stats they shouldn't be doing close to that damage.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
... Did someone say +5 shield?

+3 is the max in 5e, and it's the kind of shield a 17th level hero would have. A +5 shield is like an artefacts from the gods. This game sees very... well it's not within the bounds of normal 5e
 

bid

First Post
... Did someone say +5 shield?

+3 is the max in 5e, and it's the kind of shield a 17th level hero would have. A +5 shield is like an artefacts from the gods. This game sees very... well it's not within the bounds of normal 5e
A 5 AC shield is a +3 shield. A little strong for level 8 but hey.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
A 5 AC shield is a +3 shield. A little strong for level 8 but hey.

You are correct (although the other poster did say "+5 shield" which was misleading). Anyway, a +3 shield is *very* strong for level 8, it's very rare - and this one *also* has fire resistance, likely making this a legendary item. This isn't the stuff of level 8 characters...
 

Magistus71

Explorer
[MENTION=6846794]Gardens & Goblins[/MENTION] I didn't know 5e was built around point buy, because we all rolled for our stats just like in 3.5. I also just called my DM and pretty much asked why everyone else is saying this stuff is wrong, and he said that he knows our AC/DPS/Stats are really high for level 8. He said that he is doing things on his side that we don't see to make it fair. Personally not sure what that it but I am sending him my character sheet now so he can completely review it and balance it out, I am assuming he is now going to be doing the same thing with the other players.

I wish people would stop saying it's built around the Point buy/standard array. It is not people the rolling method is the rule, and the array is the optional methos, as written in the rule book.
 

Steffen Haeuser

First Post
Besides what's already been said, I think we really need to see the other player's sheets to figure out how they're doing such high DPR. I don't think you're doing anything "wrong", because I can honestly say I've never seen a level 8 character do over 100 DPR in actual play.

It's actually pretty easy to do. Combinations like Sor/Warlock or Barbarian/Fighter or Rogue/Ranger can do pretty high Damage. Or Arcane Trickster Rogue/Sorcerer.
 

Steffen Haeuser

First Post
Most likely an issue of "how far people go with optimization". BTW, your Human Cleric in group is doing it wrong. Much "better" to kill something faster and heal only when needed (basically Spirit Guardians + Spiritual Weapons and then with the Standard action you either hit with a weapon or cast a spell, whatever appropriate).

About your fighter. Adding Dex modifier to Heavy Armor is just wrong. Even if others have higher AC (why do they????) This rule is there on purpose. With AC 25 you nearly get not hit EVER. This makes AC-Attacks sort of redundant... Also a shield with +5 AC magic bonus is too powerful for a L8 I would say, this would be a +3 shield (+2 basic defense bonus of shield and +3 more). Usually in our group at L5-8 we have +1 as highest magic bonus (so +3 AC instead of +5 AC). We even nerfed it that you only have either magic bonus from shield or from armor or ring of protection etc. -> only from one source. As a Houserule. So the stats don't go to the sky if someone gets a second magic item.

Your stats -> how did you get those? Waaaaaaays too high. A character without weakness is less interesting. If the other characters are also like that, they should check the point-buy-system which produces characters with strengths and weaknesses (you start with 8 on all values, and can spend 27 points, the cost are 9 for 1, 10 for 2, 11 for 3, 12 for 4, 13 for 5, 14 for 7, 15 for 9 - all before ability increase/racials kick in - so you usually have 1-2 16's at L1, possibly 18 if you play Variant Human and take Ability Increase, everything else usually lower and usually you have at least one 8-10 value, your weakness).

About the stats of the other players - is this really their average, how did you calculate this? So are you 100% sure that you are so much lower than them? I am especially pretty doubtful on the Ranged fighter's 110 damage per turn. Or did you count the Arcane Archer's special abilities here? He cannot do this all the time, remember!

I also wonder about the Rogue. Standard L8 rogue would be 4d6+1d8+4 which is 22.5 dmg (a bit more if fighting with two weapons, but usually he needs his minor action for other things than attacks). Only way to have a high dps rogue would be multiclass, for example the Booming Blade Rogue/Sorcerer which indeed can do pretty high damage.

Is it anyhow possible that you overrated the damage the others do based on "maximum damage in optimal situations" and then "buffed" your character (were these buffs like Dex-AC with Heavy Armor cleared up with the GM???) to counter this? Another possibility might be of course, that the other players do stuff like the -5/+10 feat which raises the damage a lot (in our group we actually nerfed it so you can only use it once per round - when I am GM actually it is even a "forbidden feat" - I hate it).

Asides from that, about Fighter optimization - despite ridiculous stats + magic items you did not look into some basic fighter optimization stuff:

- Go 2H, not Shield+1H. You seem to be a bit obsessed with AC, but you don't actually need it that high. And a bit higher AC is not as much worth as the capability to do more
damage. Standard for a Singleclass Fighter would be Great Sword and the "you can reroll 1 and 2" combat style (very nice with the 2d6 of the Greatsword ;-) ). Also you take
the feat where you can reduce your attack chance by 5, but adding 10 to the damage. This is basically must-have for a highly optimized fighter. If you have a magic weapon
you still should have enough hitchance and you hit then REALLY HARD. Taking +1 AC instead of being able to reroll 1s and 2s is really weak.
- Also remember the singleclass fighter is NOT the sustained dps king. He is an alphastriker. With Action Surge he can do a lot of damage first round and take one enemy "out"
first round possibly.
- Also if your friends play the "maximum optimization" game remember 2 levels Barbarian (multiclass) make the Fighter much more powerful.
- If you take the "reroll 1's+2's" actually it might make sense to go for the battlemaster instead of the crit-warrior. Personally, due to the special things he can do I always thought the battlemaster the stronger one.
- Normally, with Plate Armor AC 18 you should still have pretty strong AC compared to others (asides from some broken combinations like Heavy Armor Character + Shield spell).

Best regards,
Steffen
 

Steffen Haeuser

First Post
This shows it well. The other players cannot be doing the DPR listed without some complete breaks in the rules, or some crazy powerful custom magic items. Even with the best stats they shouldn't be doing close to that damage.

Actually the rogue is possible. Though only by multiclassing (Sor 3/Rog 5, Rog/Rng might also work):

Assuming +2 Weapon and Dex 20:

Booming Blade d8+5+3d6+2d8+2
Twinned: Another d8+5+2d8+2
Quickened Greenflame Blade added: d8+5+2d8+2(Int Bonus)+2
-> 74 damage (Hope I did not miscalculate - and of course he will be doing this only every second round, as he needs his minor action in the second round to make more sorcery points for another round of twin+quicken in the 3rd round).
If the enemy actually both move then it would be another 18 dmg avg, reaching 92 dmg.
Then add the mobile feat run away from the enemy and if they follow they get additional damage from Booming Blade.
 

Steffen Haeuser

First Post
@Gardens & Goblins I didn't know 5e was built around point buy, because we all rolled for our stats just like in 3.5. I also just called my DM and pretty much asked why everyone else is saying this stuff is wrong, and he said that he knows our AC/DPS/Stats are really high for level 8. He said that he is doing things on his side that we don't see to make it fair. Personally not sure what that it but I am sending him my character sheet now so he can completely review it and balance it out, I am assuming he is now going to be doing the same thing with the other players.

Some more things:

- The GM should ALWAYS have at least a rough look at all character sheets I think to avoid any issues with misunderstood rules or whatever
- The "balancing out on his side" - this is not optimal. I did this also some years ago, when one character was too powerful. This ends the "too strong"
character gets one kind of enemy, the rest of the group gets the weaker enemy. Not only do the weaker characters feel like sidekicks, also if the strong
character goes down it is a TPK ^^
- The other thing is "leveling the world up" - but is it really better if the average city guard is as powerful as a young dragon, just to cope with too strong
characters? Is it not more sensible to not overdo optimization/items, so that the city guard or common goblin can stay at it's normal strength? Leveling the world up always ends up in destroying the gameworlds believability. Also you then never know when you encounter - for example - an orc, if it is an orc as strong as a orc should be or if it is one of those young dragons disguised as orc ;-)


I would recommend to the GM to go over all sheets and "normalize things" even if this is not a popular thing to do. Also check power level of magic items. If inexperienced, best "for the start" only use items from the books. If an item is rare/very rare/etc. gives already an idea for what sort of character it is
intended (though theoretically a L1 character can of course find a invisibility ring - I think they give this example even in the book ^^ But this is NOT recommended).
 


CubicsRube

Hero
Supporter
Not mucb more to say here. It seems like everyone is playing 5e with 3e numbers.

2 20s, a 19 and 2 15s in statis i have never ever seen in a 5e game. Pk
Lus to be honest, i find it boring having no weaknesses.

I've played games to level 11 and have not seen people pumping out 100dmg per round on a regular basis. Either they all have op weapons (possible) or some rules are being broken (also possible).
 

Horwath

Hero
1. Not using standard array or point buy? Check.

2. Giving out magic items 10 levels before they should be in game? Check.

No reason to complain about game balance.

Find a normal game, then we can discuss class/feat issues.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
I wish people would stop saying it's built around the Point buy/standard array. It is not people the rolling method is the rule, and the array is the optional methos, as written in the rule book.

4d6 dropped the lowest will, on average, give you scores in the same range as the standard array, so yeah, so balancing around 4d6 is the same as balancing around the standard array

...Yet somehow people end up with supper high stats. Interesting hmmm?

It's *not* balanced around 4d6 drop the lowest try 5 times in a row wink wink nudge nudge.
 

ad_hoc

(he/they)
I wish people would stop saying it's built around the Point buy/standard array. It is not people the rolling method is the rule, and the array is the optional methos, as written in the rule book.

The standard array is just as much the default rule as rolling is.

It is point buy that is listed as a variant.

The reason people say that it is built around the standard array is that having a max of +3 means that the character has somewhere to progress with ASIs.

If all the characters start with 20s there is nowhere to go. If a table rolls they should definitely not use feats because there is no real choice. Feats should be taken every time.

Also, with bounded accuracy even a +2 to all things is a huge deal. I used to love rolling for stats and HP. I won't do either in 5e. It just doesn't work. HP is even worse. A low HP character is KO'd very quickly, and their party will likely soon follow.
 

Oofta

Legend
I would say that your party is full of munchkins who are either cheating (knowingly or not) or have taken optimization to an extreme. For example most barbarians should top out at around 20 AC, damage should be at most around 60 (flaming greatsword with great weapon master) give or take a few points assuming they always hit and ignoring the occasional crit.

That's neither good nor bad. I wouldn't run a game like that and wouldn't find it fun to play in that game, but that's just a personal preference. What is bad is that you feel left behind in every way. As a sword-and-board champion fighter you should be more about consistency than DPR. You should have just about the best AC barring the occasional spell, same with damage. Yes other builds are going to be able to nova occasionally but slow and steady should equal out in the long run.

So you need to talk to your DM, we can't help you. Does the barbarian have a belt of cloud giant strength? Is he wearing armor while still adding in dex and con bonuses? Ask for those kind of things as well. If you're going to play a super-munchkin game, ask your DM what you can get to become a super-munchkin yourself.

Character classes in 5E are never going to be perfectly balanced, but the difference should be much less significant than what you're seeing. So talk to your DM, talk to your group. Let them know what the issue is and why and work with them to figure out how to fix it.
 

BookBarbarian

Expert Long Rester
So I am trying to figure out why my character lacks so much damage in combat. I am well below the average of the rest of my party. I will add in below the classes we are playing and our average damage. I will also added my character sheet, hope it helps. Also I am fairly new to 5e, I have always played 3.5.

Me: Human Fighter (Melee), I usually average around 30 damage per turn.

Goliath Barbarian averages, about 100 damage per turn.

Human Fighter (Ranged), averages about 110 damage per turn.

Half-Elf rogue, averages about 70 damage per turn.

Half-elf ranger, averages about 65 damage per turn.

Human cleric, he usually just spends his time healing.

Hello! It seems you have some really powerful magic items enhancing your AC, perhaps the other players have really powerful items enhancing their damage?

Magic items are fiddly things. I prefer to have just a few really special ones in my game rather than toss out so much that they feel non-special.
 

Steffen Haeuser

First Post
Hmmm, about magic items... usually the DM has the choice what he throws at the party... he just needs to be careful there, and think this through... In worst case we occasionally redesigned the "stats" of an item (while leaving the style the same) if it turned out too powerful, especially in combination with other features.
 

Caliban

Rules Monkey
I wish people would stop saying it's built around the Point buy/standard array. It is not people the rolling method is the rule, and the array is the optional methos, as written in the rule book.

And I wish people would actually check the rules before saying this, since it's untrue.

If you care to read the rules in the PHB , both rolling and standard array are the default method (PHB, page 13, 2nd paragraph). Point buy is under "Variant: Customizing Ability Scores" on the same page.

The standard array is simply the average result of "roll 4d6, keep 3". If you have a party full of characters with ridiculously high stats, then it is incredibly unlikely they were generated with the default rolling method.
 

redrick

First Post
I think this is a good illustration of how super high ability scores can break the balance of the 5e.

Imagine a Barbarian with the ability array listed up top. 20 STR. 19 DEX. 20 CON. That character would have an Unarmored AC of 19, the same as a Fighter in plate with Defensive Fighting Style. The Barbarian doesn't have to worry about disadvantage on Stealth checks, doesn't have to invest a class resource into the extra point of AC, and gets Fighter level defenses with Barbarian-level HP.
 

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