Detailed economic analysis of D&D?

Jürgen Hubert

First Post
I found the following in the Does high magic = high tech thread:

WizarDru said:
I don't have a link, but I recall some extremely detailed economic analysis of 3Es model, and one thing became clear. Due to the relative ease of availability of magic in the D&D world, the actual base D&D world should look far more different than it actually does.

Does anyone know where this "extremely detailed economic analysis" can be found? I would dearly like to have a look at this, as it might help me in developing Urbis...
 

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A little late, I know, but I was on a cross-country trip at the time!

This may be the relevent stuff WizarDru was talking about- when I saw it, I cut and pasted it onto my hard drive because I was so damn impressed by it!


City Size: Highest Level Wiz/Sor; GP Limit
Thorp: 1; 25 gp
Implication:
Nothing with a value of over 25 gp will be found here. That pretty much rules out all magic items except possibly 0th-level scrolls.

Hamlet: 2; 100 gp
Implication: You may find potions of cure light wounds and a first-level scroll. Maybe. But that's it. Local hedge wizard can't even make a +1 dagger if he wants to. Heck, he can't even find a masterwork dagger to enchant. Economy might - might - be able to support one minor potion shop.

Village: 3; 150 gp
Implication: Just like a hamlet, there really isn't much to buy here. The local wizard could make a +1 dagger, but there are no MW daggers to be found (cost over 300 gp). Economy might have one minor potion shop and/or scrolls shop but no more. No MW stuff, only 1st-level potions and scrolls. Local hedge wizard can enchant a +1 weapon - but only if you import the MW weapon for him. He won't have the resources to buy one, though.

Small Town: 4; 800 gp
Implications: Town has the resources to support a couple of potion shops, including one that makes "high-powered potions." Might see a 1st-level-spell wand shop. Supports masterwork weapons, but not magic armor, shields, or even minor wondrous items (800 gp is too little). The local hedge wizard can't brew the high-level potions though; he's only level 4. So you're looking at 1st-level wands, 1st- and 2nd- level potions and scrolls, and MW items.

Large Town: 7; 3, 000 gp
Implications: Only in a large town do you even start to see much of a market for items other than potions or scrolls. You will see the occasional +1 weapon or armor and the most minor of wondrous items. Wands might have 2nd-level power. The local wizards may be able to enchant a +2 item for you, but certainly can't buy one from you. Scrolls of 4th level and below will likely be available - but from only one source. Minor potions and scrolls are likely to be plentiful - you might see three or four potion shops.

Small City: 10; 12,000 gp
Implications: You start to see 5th-level scrolls, pretty much any potion is easy to come by, and you may find +1 and +2 weapons/armor - possibly +3 armor, though that taxes the magical resources of the town. Minor wondrous items can be had here. Most wands are probably available, too. There is likely a magic trade, but due to the fact that a typical small city has only between 1 and 4 magicians over 4th level, the trade is probably small and tightly controlled.

Large City: 13; 40,000 gp
Implications: Here, folks have the magical power and money to look at +4 weapons/armor, but they're still rare. You can get your hands on scrolls of 6th and possibly 7th level. Only in large cities do you even start seeing staffs (staves?). Potions are commonplace, as are lower level scrolls - anything you can get in a large town will be easy to find here, though more powerful items will be rarer and limited to a more exclusive group of mages (again, probably less than half a dozen). Also, have you noticed that you really can't even begin to contemplate most RINGS until you're in a large city?!?

Metropolis: 18; 90,000 gp
Implications: Scrolls (any level) and potions can be had here fairly easily. Weapons and armor of all enchantments can be made, but you're unlikely to see a weapon with an effective bonus of more than +6. Only in a metropolis are wondrous items of great power even remotely close to "widely available." However, the magical power is still somewhat consolidated - anything that would be "small and tightly controlled" in a small city is easily found here - lots of 8th and 9th level mages (comparatively) but anything beyond that in power will again be controlled by a few mages - 6 to 8 on average. Considering that metropoli tend to be seats of power, you can bet that at least one of those mages is in an advisory role to the crown (or whatever), which diminishes your chance of finding such items even more.


Hope this helps some!
 


G'day

I once did a detailed economic analysis of the traffic in Melbourne between 8 and 9 AM on a weekday morning with not significant traffic accidents. This required two man-years of intellectual effort, thousands of hours of computer time, $20,000 worth of data, and $50,000 worth of specialised software. Moreover, we had an actual Melbourne to look at.

An analysis of the economic system implied by the D&D rules is an interesting idea, but I'm pretty sure that it would run into contradictions pretty quickly, and become formally unresolvable. Another problem would arise concerning the cost and productivity data you would have to assume to fill inthe blanks. How much is it valid to draw analogies with RL economic history? And in any case it would be a fairly big job, depending on how detailed you mean by 'detailed'.

I have had some interesting discussions of particular aspects of D&D economics on the Usenet group rec.games.frp.dnd. Pehaps, if no-one here can point you in the right direction, you might like to ask over there. I doubt you'll find anything I would consider a detailed economic analysis (but if I'm wrong I'd love to hear about this work), but you might find a lot of useful stuff short of that.

Regards,


Agback
 

For a start, you should check the following article :

Medieval Demographics Made Easy

It's clear and concise and can be a great inspiration to build a sensible economic system for a fantasy RPG.

I'm planning on grabbing Fief at some point too, but I'm a bit loathe paying $20 for a PDF...
 

Jürgen Hubert said:
I found the following in the Does high magic = high tech thread:



Does anyone know where this "extremely detailed economic analysis" can be found? I would dearly like to have a look at this, as it might help me in developing Urbis...

Unfortunately it was done here on the old board and may have gone with the change of servers (unless some kind soul archived it)

There is also Old Ones Economic Model which is useful...
 

Wow. This little beauty was one of mine - though I wish I had the thread link archived to prove it conclusively. ;)

Thanks for bringing it back, though and reminding me of it - it proves useful for something else I am writing. :)

--The Sigil

City Size: Highest Level Wiz/Sor; GP Limit
Thorp: 1; 25 gp
Implication:
Nothing with a value of over 25 gp will be found here. That pretty much rules out all magic items except possibly 0th-level scrolls.

Hamlet: 2; 100 gp
Implication: You may find potions of cure light wounds and a first-level scroll. Maybe. But that's it. Local hedge wizard can't even make a +1 dagger if he wants to. Heck, he can't even find a masterwork dagger to enchant. Economy might - might - be able to support one minor potion shop.

Village: 3; 150 gp
Implication: Just like a hamlet, there really isn't much to buy here. The local wizard could make a +1 dagger, but there are no MW daggers to be found (cost over 300 gp). Economy might have one minor potion shop and/or scrolls shop but no more. No MW stuff, only 1st-level potions and scrolls. Local hedge wizard can enchant a +1 weapon - but only if you import the MW weapon for him. He won't have the resources to buy one, though.

Small Town: 4; 800 gp
Implications: Town has the resources to support a couple of potion shops, including one that makes "high-powered potions." Might see a 1st-level-spell wand shop. Supports masterwork weapons, but not magic armor, shields, or even minor wondrous items (800 gp is too little). The local hedge wizard can't brew the high-level potions though; he's only level 4. So you're looking at 1st-level wands, 1st- and 2nd- level potions and scrolls, and MW items.

Large Town: 7; 3, 000 gp
Implications: Only in a large town do you even start to see much of a market for items other than potions or scrolls. You will see the occasional +1 weapon or armor and the most minor of wondrous items. Wands might have 2nd-level power. The local wizards may be able to enchant a +2 item for you, but certainly can't buy one from you. Scrolls of 4th level and below will likely be available - but from only one source. Minor potions and scrolls are likely to be plentiful - you might see three or four potion shops.

Small City: 10; 12,000 gp
Implications: You start to see 5th-level scrolls, pretty much any potion is easy to come by, and you may find +1 and +2 weapons/armor - possibly +3 armor, though that taxes the magical resources of the town. Minor wondrous items can be had here. Most wands are probably available, too. There is likely a magic trade, but due to the fact that a typical small city has only between 1 and 4 magicians over 4th level, the trade is probably small and tightly controlled.

Large City: 13; 40,000 gp
Implications: Here, folks have the magical power and money to look at +4 weapons/armor, but they're still rare. You can get your hands on scrolls of 6th and possibly 7th level. Only in large cities do you even start seeing staffs (staves?). Potions are commonplace, as are lower level scrolls - anything you can get in a large town will be easy to find here, though more powerful items will be rarer and limited to a more exclusive group of mages (again, probably less than half a dozen). Also, have you noticed that you really can't even begin to contemplate most RINGS until you're in a large city?!?

Metropolis: 18; 90,000 gp
Implications: Scrolls (any level) and potions can be had here fairly easily. Weapons and armor of all enchantments can be made, but you're unlikely to see a weapon with an effective bonus of more than +6. Only in a metropolis are wondrous items of great power even remotely close to "widely available." However, the magical power is still somewhat consolidated - anything that would be "small and tightly controlled" in a small city is easily found here - lots of 8th and 9th level mages (comparatively) but anything beyond that in power will again be controlled by a few mages - 6 to 8 on average. Considering that metropoli tend to be seats of power, you can bet that at least one of those mages is in an advisory role to the crown (or whatever), which diminishes your chance of finding such items even more.
 

I remember the economic discussions on rgfd. The result of which is as follows (near as I recall).

The thread focused (for a bit) on Murlynd's Spoon. These are cheap, easy to make magical items that produce food in abundance. But once you take into account training someone to be a wizard, housing them, the fact that not everyone has the smarts to be an effective wizard, and that you need a couple levels to make spoons, the picture looks quite different.

It turns out that it is cheaper in the long run for a lord to hire peasants to clear fields and raise crops and livestock than it is to hire wizards to make magical spoons. Items other than the spoon (such as a custom table that can cast hero's feast) have even worse numbers. Plus the fact that rebellious peasants are a LOT easier to deal with then rebellious wizards.

So while there may be a cache of spoons somewhere in the typical castle in case of famine or seige, and a powerful lord might have a Hero's Feast table, they would not replace mundane means of getting food.

Another effect would be making the church an even greater focus of life. Most people would be loathe to leave the area around town for any reason. After all, a quick trip to the cleric can fix most injuries. But if you are out on a hike and break a leg, it could mean your life. This would also make people extremly loyal to and protective of the local clergy. (presumably, townsfolk don't pay the premium that wandering grave robbers^H^H^H^Hadventurers pay.)

Castles would still exist IMHO, mostly as signs of rule and protection against the many humanoid hordes that seem to infest so many D&D worlds. Undoubtedly, they would have high level wizards and clerics on hand to deal with magical threats, and IMC gorgon blood in the mortar shields a place from scrying and teleportation. Sure a disintegrate can blow right through a wall, but a Wall of Stone can patch it in the blink of an eye.
 

The Sigil said:
Wow. This little beauty was one of mine - though I wish I had the thread link archived to prove it conclusively. ;)

Thanks for bringing it back, though and reminding me of it - it proves useful for something else I am writing. :)

--The Sigil


Aha! Now I know who did it!

I have this terrible habit of cut and pasting things without noting who did 'em originally; if I paid more attention, I'd prolly know a few more names of posters to watch for good insight.

Thanks, Sigil!
 

cities

the Jester said:
A little late, I know, but I was on a cross-country trip at the time!

This may be the relevent stuff WizarDru was talking about- when I saw it, I cut and pasted it onto my hard drive because I was so damn impressed by it!



Hope this helps some! [/B]

Dude! Thats real helpfull!
 

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