Detect magic + Spellcraft = aggravation?

[Knight Otu]

For some reason, I completely missed the point in my first reply. I guess I somehow got detect magic = used on magic items in my head.

Regarding some of your problems, I'd say the following bit from the spell description could be an useful tool:

Magical areas, multiple types of magic, or strong local magical emanations may distort or conceal weaker auras.

The party is examining the evil alter in the evil temple, contemplating stealing the jeweled statuary. Unknown to them, touching the alter without saying the “password” opens a secret door, letting in a beasty to attack the thieves. But the bard casts detect magic – what and where does he see auras? An abjuration on the alter? What about the secret door? What spells are the magic effects? [Think of almost every published D&D module – there’s always something like this that has no straight-out-of-the-book spell or explanation. Heck, the Tomb of Horrors (currently in discussion on this forum) is full of such things.

Abjuration and likely Transmutation (telekinesis) on the altar, perhaps the whole room (in this case, no transmutation), strong aura. This kind of trap is probably best considered a magic item, and would not have an active spell.

A door that will only open to someone speaking the password. What aura, what strength, what spell?

Probably abjuration (from the suggestions in the magic item section), strength fitting for creator, ilkely moderate or faint, no active spell (treated as magic item).

A tiled floor that zaps trespassers who don’t walk in a certain pattern. What aura, what strength, what spell?

Evocation, strength depending on damage dealt, probably moderate. No active spell.

A fresco showing a raging battle, from which a warrior will jump out of when the door to the room closes. What aura, what strength, what spell (and where – the door, the wall, the floor the PCs is standing on?)?

Conjuration, likely moderate or strong, on the fresco. Again, I'd likely treat it as a magic item, so no active spell.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The party meets with an NPC mage, and the party wizard has detect magic up to give the mage a good look over. Now, instead of concentrating on the verbal exchange and role playing, I have to figure out and tell the party wizard all the buff spells the mage has up.

One party member has picked up a magic item, unknown to the rest of the group (and he might not even know it is magical). When the party mage uses detect magic to look in an area where the other PC just happens to be standing, does he see the “new” item on the other PC? Does he recognize it as something new (after all, most PCs have a few magic items on them all the time)?
“Hey, where did you get that moderate abjuration aura?”
“What? What aura?”
“That moderate abjuration aura, right behind that faint illusion aura, and beside the strong evocation aura. No, the other one. Right under the moderate evocation aura.”
“Have you been keeping track of my magic items?”

Don't forget: Magical areas, multiple types of magic, or strong local magical emanations may distort or conceal weaker auras.

Unless the new item is stronger than the others, it will fade into the haze of 'magical fuzz' that surrounds every PC.

The NPC mage might have 'a moderate abjuration aura standing out from a confusion of two or more lesser auras'.

The party is examining the evil alter in the evil temple, contemplating stealing the jeweled statuary. Unknown to them, touching the alter without saying the “password” opens a secret door, letting in a beasty to attack the thieves. But the bard casts detect magic – what and where does he see auras? An abjuration on the alter? What about the secret door?

Abjuration on the altar sounds right. I'd say nothing on the door; it's the magic of the altar opening the door (which might show as a secondary aura of transmutation, or might just be a transmutation-like effect of the altar's magic, represented by the abjuration aura).

A door that will only open to someone speaking the password. What aura, what strength, what spell?

Abjuration. Is it a spell cast on the door, or is it a Wondrous Item magic door? I'd assume a magic door with a caster level high enough to prevent it being simply Dispelled (to render the magic suppressed long enough to open it).

As a magic item, there's no spell to determine the effects of. I'd assume that the spell prerequisite would be Arcane Lock, but seeing an item in action won't tell you the prerequisite spell, unless the item actually casts that spell.

A tiled floor that zaps trespassers who don’t walk in a certain pattern. What aura, what strength, what spell?

Abjuration, and see above.

A fresco showing a raging battle, from which a warrior will jump out of when the door to the room closes. What aura, what strength, what spell (and where – the door, the wall, the floor the PCs is standing on?)?

Conjuration, only on the wall. Is it a single use effect, or does a new warrior jump out every time? I'd call a single use a spell, and a resetting trap an item.

If I wanted to really get analytical about individual effects, I'd check the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook - I have a vague memory that it had more detailed rules for magic buildings etc - building spells into walls and the like - but I'm not certain. But otherwise, I'd just go with what felt right - most traps that detect unauthorised presence would be abjuration.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Trigger doesn't matter. Effect does. Sounds like a shocking grasp or lightning bolt to me... Faint evocation.

If Fire Trap were an evocation, I'd agree... but Fire Trap says to me that sometimes, trigger matters.

-Hyp.

 

[Umbran]

With detect magic, you can see and detect, no?

Well, as others have argued, the question is whether Detect magic allows you to detect the "effects" of the spell.

I think the most reasonable interpretation for what consitutes the "effects" of a spell would be "that which is detailed in the spell description". The school of magic is there, and the power can be measured by spell level.

But that's all the spell gives you. And, given that there are in general many spells of a given school per spell level, I think that's simply not enough, in and of itself. If they don't see any effects other than the power and school, I'd not allow the spellcraft check to determine the spell details.

 

[Quasqueton]

Wow, only Caliban agrees with my interpretation? For years now, I've considered Caliban's interpretation of D&D rules as a gold standard, so I feel like I'm on solid ground, here. But I'm astonished that no one else sees the spell/skill combo this way.

I'm not going to defend my interpretation. I'm not insistent on it. I don't have any investment in it. I just thought that's the way the spell worked. But I'm not convinced that it doesn't work this way -- putting emphasis on the word "effects" isn't real enlightening. What are the effects of a wall of stone? How is it different than the effects of a wall of force viewed through detect magic?

I'm quite willing to change my interpretation of the spell/skill combo, but I don't see how my reading of the combo is wrong. It doesn't even feel like an "interpretation."

Quasqueton

 

[Voadam]

So its the spellcraft 20+ spell level check to identify the spell connected to a seen or detected spell effect, not detect magic itself that you see the main issues with.

i.e. "you see a nondescript person, [spellcraft 21 check] with disguise self, mage armor, shield, and expeditious retreat active on him."

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Vagueness is your friend:

PC: I cast detect magic. Spellcraft 21.

DM: There is a mix of abjuration, conjuration, and evocation auras about the altar.

PC: Can't I determine the specific effects? Where is the evocation centered?

DM: The multiple auras interact and confuse one another to the extent that you can't determine that level of specifics.

Keep in mind detect magic is a 1st level spell -- you may simply be providing more detail than appropriate. IMO, multiple auras (as pointed out) should render the results of detect magic vague, opening the door to use more advanced divinations (analyze dweomer, etc).

 

[Mercule]

Not really any problems, here. The closest thing to a problem was when the Warlock/Rogue started finding magical traps just a bit too easily.

Then I realized that many people constructing magical traps would realize that same thing. The logical solution is that some (not all) magical traps contain a nondetection spell in their make-up.

What fries me are near-golem critters (Cadaver Collector) that walk like a duck (DR vs adamintine), quack like a duck (magic immunities), but a explicitly or implicitly not a duck. What does one tell the character with the golembane scarab when she asks whether "that thing" is a golem?

 

[Steverooo]

I'm dividing this up, so I can take them one at a time...

The party meets with an NPC mage, and the party wizard has detect magic up to give the mage a good look over. Now, instead of concentrating on the verbal exchange and role playing, I have to figure out and tell the party wizard all the buff spells the mage has up.

On this, just tell him "Your PC sees a mix of several Abjurations and an Evocation, and the strongest aura is Moderate. They're all too jumbled together to get more."

 

[Steverooo]

The party is examining the evil alter in the evil temple, contemplating stealing the jeweled statuary. Unknown to them, touching the alter without saying the “password” opens a secret door, letting in a beasty to attack the thieves. But the bard casts detect magic – what and where does he see auras? An abjuration on the alter? What about the secret door? What spells are the magic effects? [Think of almost every published D&D module – there’s always something like this that has no straight-out-of-the-book spell or explanation. Heck, the Tomb of Horrors (currently in discussion on this forum) is full of such things.]

Heck, the Tomb of Horrors is 1e, not 3.5! It's in need of an update, if you're going to use it with the 3.5e rules!

FIRST of all, go read the Traps section of the DMG:67+. Decide for yourself HOW the trap works, what its trigger is, etc. Then detail it in 3.5e terms. Then you'll know the auras!

Most magical traps use the Alarm spell as the trigger, which is Evocation. Some can use Detect Good, etc. This one sounds like a Sonic Trigger, utilizing Clairaudience. That's a Faint Divination.

Next, how does the door get opened? If I were designing this door, I would use the best standard lock, but one made with NO keyhole... The altar (and it's altAr, not altEr, just FYI) could contain an "Object, Only" version of the Contingency spell (Evocation), which casts a Knock spell (Transmutation) on the locked, keyless door...

So, what does the Wizzer "see"? Multiple Evocations (or a Divination and an Evocation) on the altar, the strongest of which is Moderate (the sixth level Object Contingency). When the trap triggers, there would be a spell fired at the door, which would open, allowing the beastie to charge... I assume that the Wizzer won't be waiting around to detect that the school of spell fired was Transmutation! I ASSUME that he will drop the Detect Magic to use Fireball, or some such!

YMMV.