D&D 3E/3.5 Determining 3.5 Saving throw DC's from 1st/2nd Edition

[themind]

I have looked and looked, but have not found the process for determining Saving throw DC's from certain effects in 1st edition

I plan on running the ToEE in 3.5, but at some points it asks for a Saving Throw. One such event is one of the doors leading into the temple. And I can't find anywhere that helps determine the DC it. I thought it would be in the conversion that was posted in the Conversion Library, but I didn't see it.

How do you go about determing DC's this way?

 

[BOZ]

sorry, but that's just something a DM has to determine. take a look at page 31 in the DMG for sample ideas.

 

[themind]

I figured as much, Thanks.

 

[dcollins]

I've been looking at TOEE recently (the current conversion at EnWorld is kind of sketchy -- but that work is pretty hard to do in a comprehensive fashion). In the case of the main doors' protection, you can just look at the 3.x spell antipathy for the effect.

This is a Will save DC 22 effect (at minimum; it's an 8th level spell). I think that's probably high enough for the PC levels at play at this point, but you can boost it up higher than if you think it's necessary.

 

[the Jester]

I've been looking at TOEE recently (the current conversion at EnWorld is kind of sketchy -- but that work is pretty hard to do in a comprehensive fashion). In the case of the main doors' protection, you can just look at the 3.x spell antipathy for the effect.

This is a Will save DC 22 effect (at minimum; it's an 8th level spell). I think that's probably high enough for the PC levels at play at this point, but you can boost it up higher than if you think it's necessary.

I would recommend thinking through the DC the creators of the door would have had- who erected those doors, Mordenkainen or Zagyg or something? I'd say Int 25+; so I'd go with DC 25.

YMMV, of course.

 

[ZuulMoG]

DC26-29 if we assume the mage that ensorcelled the doors had Spell Focus feats.

Also, if a high-level priest channeled positive energy into the doors to secure them, a reasonable interpretation of that effect would be to further enhance the DC of the Antipathy save, say a +1 Divine bonus per 3-5 priest levels?

 

[dcollins]

Remember that from a gameplay perspective, the PCs are supposed to have a chance of making those saving throws, and they're only supposed to be around 4th level are so when they reach those front doors.

Looking at the 1st Ed. save charts (at -2 in the original text), they were expected to make that save between 3 (Ftr) and 7 (Wiz) times out of 20. I say DC 22 because even that has already reduced their chance of success by at least half (compared to the original adventure). Definitely no more than DC 25 or that encounter is totally broken compared to original expectations.

 

[the Jester]

Remember that from a gameplay perspective, the PCs are supposed to have a chance of making those saving throws, and they're only supposed to be around 4th level are so when they reach those front doors.

I would say that in a 3e environment that 'entry level' would be substantially higher. Remember, there are some encounters in the early areas of the ToEE with trolls, a hydra, an owlbear, etc.

 

[dcollins]

I suppose average expected levels do tend to go up in 3rd Ed. due to reduced party size. However, you seem to be thinking of encounters on the second dungeon level (which are admittedly not that hard to access).

I just calculated the ELs for the first dungeon level, and the average comes out to 5.55. Even 5th or 6th level 3.x PCs would have much lower chances to make that save than AD&D 4th level characters, so again they're already behind the curve at DC 22.

 

[ZuulMoG]

Remember that from a gameplay perspective, the PCs are supposed to have a chance of making those saving throws, and they're only supposed to be around 4th level are so when they reach those front doors.

Looking at the 1st Ed. save charts (at -2 in the original text), they were expected to make that save between 3 (Ftr) and 7 (Wiz) times out of 20. I say DC 22 because even that has already reduced their chance of success by at least half (compared to the original adventure). Definitely no more than DC 25 or that encounter is totally broken compared to original expectations.

Um, actually, I own that module, and from what I read, Mr. Gygax was rather cool toward the idea of some bunch of low-level PCs waltzing through the ensorcelled doors. Let's not forget that this save is simply to approach the doors, and that plenty of alternative routes are left open to the PCs to explore.

3.0 and 3.5 are ridiculously easy enough on the players, why make it even easier?