Devils & Demons= Yozis & Neverborn?

[Imaro]

When I read the article on D&D's new devils and demons, I couldn't help but feel a twang of deja vu. They are IMHO very similar to Exalted's Yozis and Neverborn. Examples...

The Primordials who surrendered were made to swear oaths on their own names and were banished into the body of one of their brothers, the general Malfeas. These Primordials are not permitted to enter Creation any longer, but they seek to escape their prison and take revenge upon the gods and their Exalted servitors. These Primordials are known as the Yozis.

Under the power of that malediction, all the rebellious angels twisted in form and became devils. Worse still, the murdered god’s words transformed Asmodeus's dominion into a nightmarish place and bound the newborn devils to it. To this day, devils plot to escape their prison, weaving lies and corruption to ensure their eventual freedom and to seize even greater power.

...when the Solar Exalted slew several of the Primordials in the Primordial War, the Underworld came into being; and at the heart of it lies the palace tombs of the sleeping Neverborn. The Neverborn are the patrons of the Deathlords and seek to extinguish all existence, seeing this as the only way to bring their torturous unlives to an end.

Elemental beings that came too close to the Abyss became trapped and warped. Any desire they have turns to the longing to obliterate the gods, creation, and even one another. They became demons.

Anyone else familiar with Exalted and got any thoughts on this?

 

[The Little Raven]

When I read the article on D&D's new devils and demons, I couldn't help but feel a twang of deja vu. They are IMHO very similar to Exalted's Yozis and Neverborn. Examples...

I don't really see it as being influenced by Exalted so much as being influenced by the same sources that Exalted was influenced by. Deicide isn't new, nor is the fall-from-grace story (devils), or the twisting of the natural order (demons). D&D just seems to be delving deeper into those old-school influences than it ever did before.

 

[Sir Brennen]

I've never read Exalted and I pretty much came up with the same distinction between Devils and Demons for my homebrew over three years ago; devils want to corrupt and subjugate creation, demons want to destroy it. Both are trapped within the remnants of a "dead" god which became the underworld.

Given certain premises of the natures of fiends, I think a lot of people would come up with a similar mythology. The concepts are practically archetypal.

 

[Imaro]

What other fantasy game differentiates the two categories(evil extra-dimensional forces of destrution vs. evil extra-dimensional forces that are trapped and plot and scheme to escape)? I'm just curious as to any you can think of, because most games I know of don't make that distinction. I also find it interesting that one of the designers for D&D 4e was also a designer for the Exalted game.

 

[Stone Dog]

It is similar, but I'd say that the flavor of them all are slightly different. Perhaps not so much Malfeans and Devils, but Demons and Neverborn are a bit different.

Servants of demons are looking for power to obliterate their enemies. Servants of the Neverborn are looking to end the painful cycle of reincarnation that torments all life. Demons are going to be pretty hard to be made to be sympathetic. Neverborn... Neverborn almost have a good point.

Malfeans were betrayed. Devils are the betrayers.

There is enough similarity there to draw parallels, but until I see the final thing I'll hold back thinking one was lifted off the other.

On the other hand, it might just be similar enough to get my exalted fangirl friend back into D&D.

 

[coyote6]

The Yozis don't want to escape their prison and take over; they want to escape their prison, obliterate the gods and Exalted in as painful a method as possible, destroy Creation, and maybe start over.

The Neverborn want to destroy *everything*, throw it all down into Oblivion. In addition, the Neverborn are even more trapped than the Yozis; the Yozis (or at least portions of them) can be summoned, while the Neverborn are forever stuck in the Labyrinth. Demons, OTOH, can apparently leave the Abyss.

They're similar, but they don't seem all that similar to me.

The Greek gods overthrew the Titans, and trapped them in a prison -- that's the Primordials/Yozis clear inspiration, IMO. The devils-in-hell, OTOH, is (to me) clearly based on the stories of Lucifer rebelling and being cast down, with the added twists that Asmodeus slew a god, became a god himself, but still got cast down.

The destruction-bent creatures have numerous inspirations -- plenty of myths about creatures trying to devour the sun & plunge the world into darkness, burn the earth, the Aztec's vision of the end of the world, etc. And there's even more literary sources -- heck, comics alone give us Darkseid, Thanos, those funky monsters from Dr. Strange that Dormammu fears, and more.

PS: OTOH, if lesser devils are subdivisions of greater devils, who are themselves segments of still greater devils, and so forth, all bets are off.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

What other fantasy game differentiates the two categories(evil extra-dimensional forces of destrution vs. evil extra-dimensional forces that are trapped and plot and scheme to escape)? I'm just curious as to any you can think of, because most games I know of don't make that distinction. I also find it interesting that one of the designers for D&D 4e was also a designer for the Exalted game.

As far as Peter Shaefer goes, he's a relatively new hire who probably hasn't had *that* much input on 4e's development. Having said that, I do agree that the 4e cosmology has some resonances with Exalted's cosmology.

4e Devils do seem to be pretty much Exalted Demons. Both are trapped in their hell-prisons and try to escape. They don't want to destroy so much as utterly corrupt the universe.

It seems like 4e Demons and Exalted Neverborn have a similar goal in destruction. However, without knowing more about 4e Demons, I just don't get that same vibe. The Neverborn are about oblivion as opposed to destruction. It's a pretty narrow distinction, I admit, but it's the difference between making things a simply not exist versus just wrecking it all. 4e Demons seem to be more of a mix between Exalted's Neverborn, Demons, and Fair Folk - they want to destroy, have a real evil edge to them, and seem to come from a primordial chaos (albeit one corrupted by evil).

 

[dmccoy1693]

The Yozis don't want to escape their prison and take over; they want to escape their prison, obliterate the gods and Exalted in as painful a method as possible, destroy Creation, and maybe start over.

The Neverborn want to destroy *everything*, throw it all down into Oblivion. In addition, the Neverborn are even more trapped than the Yozis; the Yozis (or at least portions of them) can be summoned, while the Neverborn are forever stuck in the Labyrinth. Demons, OTOH, can apparently leave the Abyss.

They're similar, but they don't seem all that similar to me.

I believe it as Picaso that said, "Good artists are inspired; great artists steal." IMHO, the demon/neverborn comparison, if it was stolen, they did a pretty decent job of wiping off the fingerprints. Devils/Yozis, ehhhh, not so much. They overlap WAY to much for there to be no "influence" between Exalted and this. But then again, they're on safer ground by saying, "oh we just took it from mythology." On the Mythology-Exalted scale, 4E Devils rank closer to Exalted. YMMV.

 

[coyote6]

Devils/Yozis, ehhhh, not so much. They overlap WAY to much for there to be no "influence" between Exalted and this. But then again, they're on safer ground by saying, "oh we just took it from mythology." On the Mythology-Exalted scale, 4E Devils rank closer to Exalted. YMMV.

Maybe, but I think my mileage does vary. I guess I just never found the "imprisoned fiends trying to get out" bit of Exalted's demons to be that original or groundbreaking, and thus I don't see it as so much of a major identifying factor.

The "all demons are dependent souls of the Yozis, who were the primordial creators of everything", OTOH -- that's the Yozi uniqueness, in my eyes.

Powerful evil-ish guys stuck in prison, scheming to get out -- eh, not so new, IMO. I set up a campaign (before Exalted was released) where that was going to be the Greek Titans' schtick.

Didn't 2e AD&D have a book that said Asmodeus was a giant primordial snake god (and amongst the most powerful of gods, at that), imprisoned in Hell? And the rest of the devils were essentially part of his scheme to escape? Maybe I'm misremembering.