D&D 3E/3.5 Devoted Defender and 3.5e

[Mephistopheles]

An invisible devoted defender could also be some fun (especially when used to protect someone the PCs are after). I can just picture a nervous looking charge, hoping that her bodyguard is still nearby, making the occasional sigh of relief in between being jostled out of the way by an unseen force when someone tries to attack her or having attacks that were surely going to hit her being deflected at the last moment for no apparent reason.

 

[kreynolds]

Heh. I like. I probably won't see that very often though. As a general rule, I don't give out or give access to blur, displacement, blink, or invisibility granting magic items that last for more than 3 rounds. Not at non-epic levels, anyway. But, you never know.

 

[Malcyrus]

I'm running a DD vampire cohort to my pale master PC in the Exodus epic arena I play in at RPOL. I'll say the DD is HUGELY beneficial as a cohort and has substantially increased the staying power of the PC.

Mechanics-wise, I'd say that Harm's Way and Defensive strike should be able to work together. If you declare an attack versus the charge within the threatened range of the DD, that action provokes an AoO and the DD may switch with the charge. When the attacker makes his attack roll, his intention is to attack the charge, and that action which provokes the AoO. Harm's way just makes the target different from what the attacker intended, but in no way changes the action of the attacker.

Harm's way doesn't seem to work in conjunction with Deflect Attack as the latter requires you to make an opposed attack roll, which suggests that the attacker has already made his roll. There is nothing to suggest that Defensive strike wouldn't work with deflect strike, though.

Defensive strike just expands the list of actions that provoke an AoO, as far as a DD is concerned. It shouldn't be limited in terms of the number of times it may be used by anything other than the normal limits on AoOs.

It is pretty funny, though, to imagine the DD switching places 5 times with her charge against a full attack routine.

 

[kreynolds]

It is pretty funny, though, to imagine the DD switching places 5 times with her charge against a full attack routine.

I actually picture an amazing dance of skill, precision, and perfect balance. It's quite cinematic.

 

[psyronin]

So how does everyone feel about the "switch places"? It seems to indicate that the locations of the charge and the DD actually change. There is no mention that this "switch" resets after the attack is concluded.

 

[Caliban]

The description of Harm's Way specifically states that use of the ability is declared before the attack roll on your charge is made. So either you use Harm's Way before the attack roll and it then becomes an attack on you or you don't and it remains an attack on your charge. Then the attack roll is resolved accordingly.
[/b]

The attack was declared against your charge. Until you switch places, it is still an attack against your charge.

Until they make the attack roll on your charge they haven't actually taken the action that provokes the AOO from you. If they make the attack roll and provoke the AOO it's too late to use Harm's Way.

I don't see how this prevents the use of Defensive strike, since the defensive strike also takes place before the attack roll is made. Then you switch places before the attack on your charge is completed.

The AoO always comes before the action that provokes it, otherwise you wouldn't be able to stop that action from taking place, the way you can with Trip, Grapple, and Sunder attacks that provoke.

 

[kreynolds]

The attack was declared against your charge. Until you switch places, it is still an attack against your charge.

Oh, good point. *scratches chin*

I don't see how this prevents the use of Defensive strike, since the defensive strike also takes place before the attack roll is made. Then you switch places before the attack on your charge is completed.

The AoO always comes before the action that provokes it, otherwise you wouldn't be able to stop that action from taking place, the way you can with Trip, Grapple, and Sunder attacks that provoke.

That's what I figured, and the rules seem to fully support this, but I guess this part of my question was more about the intent. Do you think allowing a DD to use Harm's Way and Defensive Strike in this manner is too much? To be honest, I haven't seen this PrC in play yet, but I'm willing to make a gamble that it won't be too much and go ahead and try it to see how it goes.

I'm more willing to take that kind of risk with an NPC working with the PCs than I am an NPC working against the PCs.

 

[psyronin]

I don't see a problem with using Defensive Strike before using Harm's Way. Since the Defensive Strike is an AoO, it already comes with its own limitations.

Also, if you couldn't it would be absolutely worthless since a DD is supposed to absorb the hit by using Harm's Way, so no attack can ever be targeted at his charge.

Hmm... by the same token, Deflect Attack is also worthless. Why take the risk deflecting when Harm's Way is 100% effective? Can you imagine this scenario?
Goblin swings at wizard. Wizard's bodyguard snickers and allows the attack to proceed so he can deflect it. Oh no, it's a natural 20! Wizard dead, good luck finding a protector job in the future, Mr. Devoted Defender.

 

[Mephistopheles]

The attack was declared against your charge. Until you switch places, it is still an attack against your charge.

I wasn't saying anything to the contrary.

I don't see how this prevents the use of Defensive strike, since the defensive strike also takes place before the attack roll is made. Then you switch places before the attack on your charge is completed.

The AoO always comes before the action that provokes it, otherwise you wouldn't be able to stop that action from taking place, the way you can with Trip, Grapple, and Sunder attacks that provoke.

You aren't pre-emptively stopping the action that provokes the AoO but you are able to make some types of actions (eg/ disarm and grapple, but not sunder and trip) fail automatically if you deal damage with your AoO. In the game world they're happening at the same time, at the game table the AoO is resolved first.

Still, by the letter of the rules I think you are correct in saying that the Defensive Strike would come before the attack roll against the charge is made. However, I think that this is a side effect of the mechanic for the resolution for AoOs and not necessarily the intention that Defensive Strike and Harm's Way should have that sort of interaction.

In general I don't think this would be a problem anyway. However, Devoted Defenders with high Dexterity and Combat Reflexes could pull out some pretty disgusting defending in 3.5 depending on how you adjudicate Defensive Strikes and Harm's Way.

 

[Caliban]

Still, by the letter of the rules I think you are correct in saying that the Defensive Strike would come before the attack roll against the charge is made. However, I think that this is a side effect of the mechanic for the resolution for AoOs and not necessarily the intention that Defensive Strike and Harm's Way should have that sort of interaction.

I think that is just the sort of interaction they were intended to have. Otherwise it makes either Harms Way or Defensive Strike pointless. You have to choose between either defending your charge or whacking someone, and you would pretty much always choose defending your charge in that case.

They are potentially more potent with the change to Combat Reflexes, but most creatures would get the idea after the first attack or two and focus on you instead of your charge.