D&D 5E Dex vs. Str

[Guest 6801328]

Hmm. I like the basic concept, but I don't like either of the proposed solutions to the sneak attack problem, and I also don't like making crits so common - with a 20 Dex, a dual wielder at 5th level would average close to 1 crit per round.

Remember that a crit is only going to do 4.5 for a d8 weapon, whereas adding your Dex to your damage would add 5. (Again, glossing over the Sneak Attack problem for now.)

What about something like this instead?

• Add your Dex mod + 2 to all weapon attack rolls.
• Add your Str mod + 2 to all weapon damage rolls.

It'd take a fair bit of testing to be sure, but a bit of number crunching suggests it is at least in the right ballpark.

I tried not to mess with +attack. Once you start giving the two builds different hit rates thing can get really wonky fast. Trying to balance "hitting more often for less damage" vs "less often for more damage" is really, really hard.

 

[Guest 6801328]

I don't really like changing the crit mechanic so much. I would probably just make it like this:

Normal melee weapons: Str to attack, Str to damage
Finesse melee: Dex to attack, Str to damage

The issue with this is that it makes Dex builds MAD, but not Str builds. In other words, a Str build can dump Dex, but a Dex build can't dump Str.

Normal ranged: Dex to attack, Dex to damage
Thrown ranged: Dex to attack, Str to damage

If the logic of adding to Dex to damage is that accuracy lets you do more damage, why wouldn't it apply to both? Alternatively, accuracy IS more damage (you hit more often) so adding Dex to damage is like double-dipping.

I find the argument that stronger characters can pull heavier bows/crossbows pretty compelling. If two characters have the same dexterity, and one is burly and the other is a wimp, all in all I think I'd much rather get shot by the wimp.

 

[Guest 6801328]

FWIW, I ran another sim that just used the rule "dex for attack, str for damage". Results were all over the map.

One high and one low stat clearly favored Str; as the two stats converged Dex was favored.

Low damage weapons favored Str; high damage weapons favored Dex (again, this would be mitigated with low-damage weapons by an offhand, which wouldn't benefit from Str)

Low AC favored Str; high AC favored Dex

Advantage favored Str (of course)

Overall it might actually work. AC and Advantage are so unpredictable that I'm not sure you could objectively claim one build was better than the other.

But bounded accuracy being so vital to 5e, I hate to mess with hit chances.

 

[Shiroiken]

If you wanted to do it right, you'd use Dex to attack and Str for damage on all attacks (except crossbows, guns, and other mechanical weapons). However, that's "not D&D" for too many people.

 

[Dausuul]

Remember that a crit is only going to do 4.5 for a d8 weapon, whereas adding your Dex to your damage would add 5. (Again, glossing over the Sneak Attack problem for now.)

Oh, I'm not objecting to it in a mechanical sense; it may well be balanced. It's more an aesthetic objection to having crits happen so often. I prefer crits to be unusual and exciting.

I tried not to mess with +attack. Once you start giving the two builds different hit rates thing can get really wonky fast. Trying to balance "hitting more often for less damage" vs "less often for more damage" is really, really hard.

Fair enough. There are a lot of moving parts in D&D; anything that touches the core mechanics is going to ripple through the system.

 

[Yardiff]

Dex to damage is a very recent thing so how would changing it be 'not D&D'? I think you'd find alot of people would agree dex to hit and str to damage 'makes since'. My opinion anyways.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Strength as the stat used to hitting and damage, and Dex as the more defensive stat seems to fit fairly well. You could look at crushing the armour table down a bit to remove some entries and reducing the AC of the best armour, but allow Dex to apply to any armour as long as you make the Str requirement for it.

I've not noticed a huge issue with people dumping one or the other as an optimisation measure. I wouldn't call my group powergamers though. I think that the only Str/Dex related houserules that we have is allowing Bows to use either Str or Dex, and removal of the Finesse requirement for Sneak Attack.

If you wanted to do it right, you'd use Dex to attack and Str for damage on all attacks (except crossbows, guns, and other mechanical weapons). However, that's "not D&D" for too many people.

Dex to damage is a very recent thing so how would changing it be 'not D&D'? I think you'd find alot of people would agree dex to hit and str to damage 'makes since'. My opinion anyways.

Maybe. Its a bit more fiddly, and D&D's combat system, particularly the way armour/tough skin works to reduce hit chance to hit muddies the waters rather.
Keeping Str to hit and damage, and Dex to AC fits as well: Grace and balance can be useful when trying to land a blow in melee, but probably contribute more to avoiding them, and athleticism and power are needed to get out of the way of attacks, but probably contribute more to hitting overall.

The idea of the completely lumbering, very clumsy warrior or the weak flabby fighter with no muscle tone or power is a very D&D development, and I agree that it doesn't make much sense as a general concept.

 

[Horwath]

1st. Constitution should be removed and it's role merged into strength.

That way strength cannot be dumped on dex character without negative side to it.

It would also incorporate lots of saves into it.


2nd. rapier and longsword cannot have same damage. Versatile property is next to useless and cannot be valued same as finesse and/or light property.

So;

Longsword 1d10 damage(1d12 versatile)

Rapier, 1d8 damage, finesse

Arming sword 1d8 damage, light

Short sword, 1d6 damage, light, finesse

2Handed heavy weapon(greatsword, greataxe, maul), 2d8 damage, 2handed, heavy

2Handed finesse weapon; 1d12 damage, 2Handed, finesse.---->this could be a place for katana. IMHO not a finesse weapon but many people wants it to be.

This way is also damage difference between str and dex builds.

 

[Mephista]

This feels a bit off to me. First of all? The idea of using Dexterity to wield a giant hammer is... iffy. Finesse weapons are based on the idea that edged weapons only need a tiny bit of force to cut through fur and flesh. Meanwhile, hammers? Those rely on brute force than breaking skin. Bludgeoning damage should not be Dex-able. Shooting a bow with Strength? Now, while strength is important for pulling the string on a long bow, aiming is far more important. On a crossbow? There's no strength to be had! This is a little too strange right off the bat with ranged weapons.

I really have to question those numbers being run. It sounds like you're just using a basic Fighter idea behind this. Which I suppose is alright if we just had fighters, but we don't. We have to consider the effects on all six warrior classes. The rogue, the barbarian are both built around the idea of exploding with criticals. Making them more common is going to make things crazy there. Paladins can hold smites until they crit, and then? Huge nova damage. Monks.. well, they're going to be hurt because you just made them MAD again - they're already one of the weaker warriors. Rangers... my head hurts trying to figure out their changes - there's beast companions, hunter bonuses, the need for stealth, are we going with an archer or melee? I don't think they'd be that different from the Fighter results.

I think that, in the end, pushing critical hits higher is just going to encourage crit-fishing as a tactic, which is just going to be crazy. Furthermore? We're going to actually see an INCREASE of strength being dumped. Not everyone relies on the extra STR / DEX bonus to damage, so in those cases? Strength becomes utterly meaningless. Meanwhile, since crits don't multiply the adds, we're still going to have GWM that dump Dex, simply because the majority of damage doesn't come from the damage dice, but the other multipliers.

Ranged doesn't need an offhand attack - it just needs a bonus action attack. Which you see in the form of things like Swift Quiver or Crossbow Mastery.

Really, I can't help but think we're creating more problems here that need to be fixed and re-balanced, and creating more exasperating problems of making Dex-focused builds to enable lots of crit-fishing.

Then, lets start looking at casters. Notably, the eldritch blasters, but pretty much any spell with an attack roll. How do the new rules compare? Pretty much most casters have DEX for adding to their AC in the first place.


I feel like you're going to need a page's worth of houserules just to make the DEX-Critical-Range thing function.

 

[Mephista]

Personally, if you want less stat dumping? I'd recommend something more along the lines of what Ryuu-tama did:

Light Blade: dagger, short sword, wakizashi, etc.
Accuracy: [DEX + INT] +1
Damage: [INT] -1
An accurate but weak weapon. 1-handed

Blade: broadsword, rapier, katana, etc.
Accuracy: [DEX + STR]
Damage: [STR]
A weapon with good balance between accuracy and damage. 1-handed

Polearm: longspear, trident, lance, etc.
Accuracy: [DEX + STR]
Damage: [STR] +1
A weapon with high damage. 2-handed

Axe: battleaxe, greataxe, etc. (Though, we can also make an identical category for big blunt weapons as well. We'll just call it Hammer.)
Accuracy: [STR + STR] -1
Damage: [STR]
A weapon with poor accuracy but which takes advantage of the bearer’s strength. 2-handed

Bow: shortbow, longbow, crossbow, slingshot, etc.
Accuracy: [INT + DEX] -2
Damage: [DEX]
Can attack from long range, but has poor accuracy. 2-handed

Unarmed: unarmed combat, using a stick, etc.
Accuracy: [DEX + STR]
Damage: [STR] -2 (Using an improvised weapon makes this -1 instead)
Attempting to fight without a weapon. Uses both hands.

Now, this game doesn't have proficiency bonuses, and only uses four stats. STR absorbed CON, and WIS was broken up, with INT taking on the bulk of perception duties. But I think the idea here is solid - different weapons use different combinations of stats to deal damage or to hit. Something like that could be implimented so as to not encourage stat dumping.