Did a FLGS introduce you to the hobby?

How were you introduced to the hobby?

  • A FLGS or other retailer

    Votes: 15 10.9%
  • Friends, family, acquiantances

    Votes: 93 67.9%
  • Media (advertising, articles, news shows)

    Votes: 10 7.3%
  • Other (please explain)

    Votes: 19 13.9%

i was introduced to D&D through Pool of Radiance, Curse of the Azure Bonds, etc. :)

i find the FLGS to be very important. i hooked up with my current Savage Worlds group through posting an ad at the FLGS. and my other roleplaying group I got hooked up with through an email list for the l5r CCG in my area, and without FLGSs to have tournaments at, I wouldn't have been able to get into l5r to get hooked up with that community.

for the people who have a group of close friends and that's the only people they game with, who don't need to recruit players, and who only play rpgs, yeah the flgs isn't that useful. but for those of us who play ccgs or minis, or who like to have a place to post ads to get hooked up in a game, it's a godsend.

plus, where else can you go and impulse buy things like dice or booster packs when you pick up your comics? :) i don't like ordering stuff online and waiting for it, i like to buy things and have them in my hand that moment.
 

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Joshua Dyal said:
Totally friends and acquaintances, in my book. I like a good FLGS as much as the next guy, but I'm also not convinced that they're essential to the survivial of the hobby. They're just more convenient than ordering online, or buying from Barnes & Noble.
Ditto for me. I couldn't agree more.
 

Najo said:
But if you define the hobby as rpgs, wargames, and card games, then FLGS plays an important role in the hobby.
First off, this poll is not trying to argue that FLGS contribute absolutely nothing to the hobby. It was an attempt on my part to find out if the assumption that they are the *primary* means of drawing in newbies was valid or not.

Second, I, for one, would not define the hobby as including CCGs and wargames. While it's true that many RPG'ers also play these types of games (as well as German board games, CMGs, CRPGs, LARPs, and party games), it's also true that many of them don't (including myself, for the most part), and many players of these other types of games don't play pen-and-paper RPGs --something I'd wager is far more common than the reverse.


The FLGS gives gamers a gathering place to play Magic or Warhammer (for example) without inviting strangers into their home, and gives them greater resources for terrain, play space, tournaments, and other face to face social events that the internet cannot provide. Then from the players of these games, a gamer might met other people to role play with.
:confused: I guess I'm not sure how giving people a place to play games that are not RPGs somehow supports the hobby of RPGs. There are probably other venues that you could argue attract "gamer types" --such as comic shops, libraries, Internet cafes, software retailers, SF/Anime conventions, etc.-- but I don't know if that means they all "support" the RPG hobby and are vital to its growth.


For the pure role player, you may not see the FLGS as essential to the survival of the hobby, but you need to look at the whole ecology of our industry and realize that without game stores, CCGs and Wargames would have a very difficult time surviving, and without those games the distribution of ALL hobby products is difficult to maintain.
If you're arguing that sales of CCGs and wargames help to bolster a FLGS's bottom line, allowing them to stay profitable, and thus keep RPG products in stock, I suppose I can't argue with you. Then again, the height of RPGs' popularity pre-dates the existence of CCGs, CMG's, and big-name, big-selling wargames like Warhammer. If anything, the rise of these games coincided with a marked lack of interest in RPGs.

It also quite possible that a FLGS could sustain itself, as well as draw in "gamer types" by means of other products. We've all seen comic stores that also stock RPGs, and a semi-FLGS here in Illinois --Something Wicked in Evanston-- mostly focuses on horror and mystery novels and sells no minis of any sort.

Not to mention, there are plenty of stores that sell wargames and CCGs but don't sell RPGs (Games Workshop stores, comic shops, most toy stores). Ergo, I don't see how the game tables at the local GW shop are going to encourage anyone to walk to the other side of the mall to visit Gamers Paradise and buy D&D books.


Bottomline - rpgs would lose the ability to be manufactured and shipped in a printed form, pushing the role playing market completely onto the internet and gamers would only find each other through chat, forums or their own limited social circles, having no centralized gathering place acting as a 'watering hole' for them.
I don't think the disappearance of FLGS's would preclude RPGs being made in printed form at all. Not having to deal with distributors would probably save most games companies money. I mean, the biggest retailer on the Web is Amazon (primarily a book store), fer gosh sakes.

And there are quite a few "indie" RPGs I never see in stores that seem to be doing very good business via 'Net sales. Look at Sorcerer or The Riddle of Steel.

As for the "watering hole" effect, I'm not sure. Games Plus is a great place to hang out, but it's also about 45 minutes away from me. My computer, however, is only 20 feet from my bedroom. With it, I can participate in a community (as we're doing right now) that's comprised of people all over the world, as opposed to just those who happen to live within driving distance of my FLGS (and who bother to hang out there).

Again, this is not an argument that the FLGS is useless in this regard (you can take Games Plus away from me when you pry it from my cold, dead hands!); I'm just saying that the 'Net is far more useful than you're giving it credit for, and this publishing apocalypse you're envisioning simply is not going to happen. :)


Even worse, I feel, is with that event the quality of roleplaying products goes down the tubes COMPLETELY for those of us who prefer printed products over PDFs or software.
I'm not sure I understand what you've written here. Are you making a generalization that PDFs are inherrently inferior products, content-wise? Somebody might want to let Malhavoc, RPGObjects, and Expeditious Retreat know about this.


And one other point I would like to add, that this poll is unintentiaonlly misrepresenting the facts of our hobby. According to industry demographics, most current rpgers learned to play BEFORE (during the 80's basically) the CCG boom (which happened in the 90's) that gave birth to the current game store model.
No offense, but this poll isn't misrepresenting anything. I'm asking a simple question about how people were first exposed to the hobby. I don't think the point you're trying to make here has anything to do with the nature of this poll.

Game stores don't seem to have changed much to me. The Gamers Paradise chain stores look no different than they did back when I was junior high, except now they sell CCGs, too. I'd be curious whether someone like thalmin could attest to whether there's any truth to your assertion. The "model" pre-dates the phenomena you're talking about, IMHO.

Also, if most gamers learned to play before the CCG boom, it would seem to follow that CCGs certianly haven't helped bring in more players. As I mentioned above, the height of the CCG boom seemed to be when TSR was going bankrupt and people were leaving the hobby in droves. You could make an argument that the CCG boom did help, though, in that it gave WotC enough capital to buy TSR and then produce 3e... which seemed to bring a lot of people back to the hobby. :)


The truth is, the RPG market is aging faster than it is pulling in new, younger players due to the very nature of how the game is played. Because role players rarely play outside their group of friends and a successful game requires a good DM to run, roleplaying has many factors stacked against it to keep it a growing industry, compared other hobby or video games (which allow you to play without a referee and with or against anyone regardless of their age).
I'll agree that the very nature of RPGs makes them often a hard sell; they require a lot of prep, a lot of players, and a signficant time investment. CRPGs, CCGs and CMGs have none of these drawbacks.

I'd argue that wargames often do, however. I barely have patience to paint the few minis I use for RPGs; I can't imagine the effort invovled in painting freaking *armies* of GW figs just to play WH.

Regardless, it seems like you're saying that it's our own fault that RPGs aren't pulling in new players, and I don't know if I agree with that.
 

I first heard of dnd from a newspaper article that my mom read me. A couple of months later she took me to the Hobby Hut where I got the 'basic set' and a module (L1- the Secret of Bone Hill, to be precise!)
 

Friends at school in 7th grade got me into D&D.

The first purchases of TSR products were made for me by my Dad at a hobby shop. (G&G Hobbies in Griffith, IN). G&G was more of a model railroad and RC airplane shop, but they carried some of the TSR line and I think some wargames. My Dad bought the 1980 Basic Set and the 1st Edition Gamma World boxed set there.

I later bought the 1E MM, PHB, and DMG from Toys'R'Us, along with a handful of modules.

Since getting back into RPGs around 2000, I think I have purchased more from E-bay than anywhere else, but that is mostly out of print stuff. I think I've bought about equal amounts of d20 stuff from various LGSs and on-line retailers.
 

I'd heard about D&D through the media once--maybe twice. I'd seen a PHB my Dad borrowed from a co-worker once. (He used it as inspiration for a computer game for the Apple ][ that he wrote.)

It was a FLGS from which I actually bought a Basic Set and got really introduced to the game, though.

Personally, when I look at the results of this poll, I ignore the "Friends, family, acquiantances" responses. While that may be the most important way people are introduced to the hobby, somebody in the chain has to have been introduced in a different fashion. (Well, unless everyone can trace a relationship to Gary & Dave through friends, family, & acquaintances.)

buzz said:
Over on the Hero Games boards, I've been in a discussion about whether FLGS's are necesary to the continued healthy of gaming as a hobby [...]

Well, I don't know that the results of this poll really tells you whether FLGSs are necessary to the health of the hobby. FLGSs have improved my gaming experience in lots of ways.

I don't think they're necessary, but I think they do make the hobby healthier.
 

buzz said:
Anyone know if there's a collection of his or something where I can find this article? I notice he did one called "Of Tabletop Universes", too.

I don't think they were ever collected, but I'll tell you how to get them. ;) Go to your local library, and tell them you want to get a couple of magazine articles through interlibrary loan. It might cost you a few dollars, or it might not, depending on the library, if you are a student, etc. Here is the info on the articles you want:

On Evenings Beyone the Fields We Know-John M. Ford
http://isfdb.tamu.edu/cgi-bin/pw.cgi?7bef3c

On Tabletop Universes-John M. Ford
http://isfdb.tamu.edu/cgi-bin/pw.cgi?7c1080


buzz said:
Is that why they did the chits? I live in the US and mine had chits, too. I figured they were just being cheap.

I thought the reason for the chits was that TSR couldn't get enough dice from their supplier to fill all orders. This may have been because of the oil embargo. I doubt it was because they were just being cheap, since the dice started showing up in sets again fairly soon.
 

RFisher said:
I don't think they're necessary, but I think they do make the hobby healthier.
I guess my real beef is the counterclaim, i.e., if all we had was the 'Net and general word-of-mouth, the hobby would die. If anything, I think that the Information Age has shown us that the 'Net is one of the most powerful community-building tools in existence. Sites like ENWorld --not to mention both big (Amazon) and small (FRPGames.com, RPGNow.com) online retailers that can offer access to a near-limitless catalog of RPGs and accessories-- are going to be cruicial to the future of the hobby, IMHO.

Of course, we all keep talking about extremes. I think that gaming is settling into a nice middle-ground, i.e., a world-wide community nurtured by the 'Net that can gather on a local level at key, uber-FLGS's and face-to-face events, e.g., GenCon and smaller events. Heck, it was a combination of the two (ENWorld Game Day) that got me to my first "con" and inspires me to find ways to contribute more.
 
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Well, you bring up interesting points and I would like to comment on them. So you know, I am not intending to be argumentive, just provide my own insights from my experience owning a game store for the last 8 years and working in the industry for the last 12 years.

:confused: I guess I'm not sure how giving people a place to play games that are not RPGs somehow supports the hobby of RPGs. There are probably other venues that you could argue attract "gamer types" --such as comic shops, libraries, Internet cafes, software retailers, SF/Anime conventions, etc.-- but I don't know if that means they all "support" the RPG hobby and are vital to its growth.
FLGS out of all of these venues you mention are the most likely to attract rpgers. Most rpgers I know play at least one other type of hobby game and many of those other game players are at least willing to try role playing (as the concept is similar in some fashion to what they are currently into), whereas the patrons of the other places you mentioned are not necessarily disposed to role playing.

If you're arguing that sales of CCGs and wargames help to bolster a FLGS's bottom line, allowing them to stay profitable, and thus keep RPG products in stock, I suppose I can't argue with you. Then again, the height of RPGs' popularity pre-dates the existence of CCGs, CMG's, and big-name, big-selling wargames like Warhammer. If anything, the rise of these games coincided with a marked lack of interest in RPGs.

Actually, from everything I have heard from industry officials, more people are playing both D&D and other role playing games then ever before. From my own observations, I would guess that this is mostly true, but a very large percentage of the other rpg catagory is now playing d20 games (namely D&D).

It also quite possible that a FLGS could sustain itself, as well as draw in "gamer types" by means of other products. We've all seen comic stores that also stock RPGs, and a semi-FLGS here in Illinois --Something Wicked in Evanston-- mostly focuses on horror and mystery novels and sells no minis of any sort.

Not to mention, there are plenty of stores that sell wargames and CCGs but don't sell RPGs (Games Workshop stores, comic shops, most toy stores). Ergo, I don't see how the game tables at the local GW shop are going to encourage anyone to walk to the other side of the mall to visit Gamers Paradise and buy D&D books.

For one, the game industry is a difficult market to survive in, and the FLGS plays an important role in gathering all types of gamers together to play with each other. The stores that are fun, professional, and carry most of the major products as well as having game play space and organized events are doing the most to help the hobby as a whole. A GW mall store only goal is to pull in new customers to play GW products, but statistics from GW and Independant Retailers show those GW outlets drive new players who stick with Warhammer and WH40k to dedicated FLGS who have events and game play space, in turn exposing those GW customers to RPGS.

I don't think the disappearance of FLGS's would preclude RPGs being made in printed form at all. Not having to deal with distributors would probably save most games companies money. I mean, the biggest retailer on the Web is Amazon (primarily a book store), fer gosh sakes.
And there are quite a few "indie" RPGs I never see in stores that seem to be doing very good business via 'Net sales. Look at Sorcerer or The Riddle of Steel.

As for the "watering hole" effect, I'm not sure. Games Plus is a great place to hang out, but it's also about 45 minutes away from me. My computer, however, is only 20 feet from my bedroom. With it, I can participate in a community (as we're doing right now) that's comprised of people all over the world, as opposed to just those who happen to live within driving distance of my FLGS (and who bother to hang out there).

Again, this is not an argument that the FLGS is useless in this regard (you can take Games Plus away from me when you pry it from my cold, dead hands!); I'm just saying that the 'Net is far more useful than you're giving it credit for, and this publishing apocalypse you're envisioning simply is not going to happen. :)

This isn't an attack, but I find it intersting you say in one sentence that you feel the disappearance of the FLGS wouldn't affect printed RPGS, but then go on to say that Games Plus would have to be pryed from your cold dead hands. What is it you care about from your FLGS that you can say they are not needed anymore, but then would hate to see its demise?

The FLGS account for HALF of the total sales of most main stream (D&D) type books, and count for 70% of the smaller, independant publications you speak of like Riddle of Steel. Not to mention, when dealing with D&D products your speaking about 10's of thousands of printed products, wereas the next highest manufacturer (White Wolf) is lucky when they sell 10,000 copies of a book. Many of the manufacturers are on tight budgets as it is, and the small publishers hold second jobs to pay their bills. The current distribution model with wholesalers and retailers is still the most superior for small businesses who are printing and selling small quanities of a niche product.

I'm not sure I understand what you've written here. Are you making a generalization that PDFs are inherrently inferior products, content-wise? Somebody might want to let Malhavoc, RPGObjects, and Expeditious Retreat know about this.

I said that for those of us who prefer printed products, we would hate to see an exclusive PDF marketplace. The majority of rpgs currently prefer using books over PDF files, which the sales demographics for PDFs prove. Where a great RPG product does 10,000, a good one 5,000, and a ok one 1,000... Most PDFs are considered highly successful when they break 500 copies.

No offense, but this poll isn't misrepresenting anything. I'm asking a simple question about how people were first exposed to the hobby. I don't think the point you're trying to make here has anything to do with the nature of this poll.

Game stores don't seem to have changed much to me. The Gamers Paradise chain stores look no different than they did back when I was junior high, except now they sell CCGs, too. I'd be curious whether someone like thalmin could attest to whether there's any truth to your assertion. The "model" pre-dates the phenomena you're talking about, IMHO.
My point is that I feel FLGS do play an important role (along with the internet), in promoting RPGs as a hobby. From what I have seen, most rpgers came into the hobby before the current model of game stores existed, which is the model with large amounts of game play space and store ran events. Back in the 80's this was not common store setup, and D&D was sold mainly through toy stores, book stores, comic shops and traditional hobby shops. The game store that is ALL hobby games and has numerous tables to hold tournaments is a newer model after the event of CCGs.

This is why I felt your poll UNINTENTIONALLY was flawed, as your saying you feel our industry doesn't need the FLGS and then you support your claim by polling enworlders (which is only a percentage of the market of the whole rpg hobby - and an internet savvy one at that which probably makes a higher than normal amount of their purchases online), many of us who are older than the now wide spread social game store model, begun playing rpgs with either 2nd ed AD&D or D&D and 1st ed AD&D and were introduced by friends or friends of a friend who already play. What your poll doesn't allow for is to show how FLGS are helping rpgs.

Also, if most gamers learned to play before the CCG boom, it would seem to follow that CCGs certianly haven't helped bring in more players. As I mentioned above, the height of the CCG boom seemed to be when TSR was going bankrupt and people were leaving the hobby in droves. You could make an argument that the CCG boom did help, though, in that it gave WotC enough capital to buy TSR and then produce 3e... which seemed to bring a lot of people back to the hobby. :)

As I stated above, most rpgers play at least one other non-rpg game. But, most other hobby gamers do not role play. D&D has a gross annual sales of 15m a year, where Magic: the Gathering does between 150-200m depending on the market interests at the time. Games Workshop has 170m in annual sales on average. RPGs have a much smaller market share then other hobby games, showing that most other hobby gamers could care less about rpgs.

And, during the TSR bankrupcy rpgers didn't leave the hobby in droves, WOTCs own surveys show that most rpgers are commited for life (or damn near it) to their hobby. That period of time is when alternative rpgs (namely White Wolf) experienced tremendous growth. But most CCGers or Wargamers do not play rpgs, and in that you are correct...

BUT, You could say that other hobby games are helping rpgs sell by gathering the various rpg products under one roof and allowing their rpg customers the ability to browse the products. In fact, I would bet a large number of the users here DO go into game stores and look at products before buying them (whether at the establishment or online to save a few buck and not support the retailer who gave them the opportunity to see the product).

Truthfully, imagine a world without game stores. Imgaine not being able to look at the products content to know if it is worth buying. This is something I feel gamers forget about from time to time, and our industry would have trouble without these showrooms where players can look at a rpg product or tryout a non-rpg game.

I'll agree that the very nature of RPGs makes them often a hard sell; they require a lot of prep, a lot of players, and a signficant time investment. CRPGs, CCGs and CMGs have none of these drawbacks.

I'd argue that wargames often do, however. I barely have patience to paint the few minis I use for RPGs; I can't imagine the effort invovled in painting freaking *armies* of GW figs just to play WH.

RPGS typically are a group of friends who get together, make characters, place them into a campaign setting of the group's or DM's choice, and then develop the character's background into the plans of the DM. Occasionally, a new friend or realtive of one of the players joins the group from time to time, or members of one group particpate in a second group with other like players.
With Magic or Warhammer, non hobby people learn of the product and then go ...hmm what is this, get a demo and start playing. You also see players meet up for games through leagues, game nights and tournaments at FLGS.

With RPGs you have to get a large group of 4-8 people together to play regularily once a week, with other hobby games its 30 mins - 2 hrs and then on to the next game. Even though you might not have the patience to paint and play a game like Warhammer, its annual sales show that many players do.

Regardless, it seems like you're saying that it's our own fault that RPGs aren't pulling in new players, and I don't know if I agree with that.

Look, I don't want you to get the wrong idea. I myself have been playing RPGs for over 20 years now, Warhammer for 14 years and Magic off and on since it came out about 10 years ago. I love all of these games for different reasons. Personally, Magic is the one I could live without, and role playing and Warhammer are equal for me for different reasons. All of these games enrich their players though, and I my experience has shown me that the FLGS is essentially to these games surviving. All of these games are best when people meet physically together to have fun and play, something that the internet cannot provide easily in the same way.

As for fault, this isn't really about fault. But when was the last time a role playing group invited a younger player, a complete stranger, or a total none roleplayer (all NECESSARY to the growth of the rpg hobby) and then successfully kept them in the hobby and got that person's friends playing to. CCGs and Wargames do this all the time, but RPGs because of their intimate style of play and high degree of commitment work against bringing in new players is all I was saying. I am guiltyof this to. I love playing Warhammer or Magic (and simliar games) against anyone willing to play a fun game, but a RPG I enjoy best with my close friends.

In fact, if a rpg group really wanted to help the rpg industry, they need to actively recruit new players into playing with them. The most ideal canidate for this just happens to be other hobby gamers. Ironically, those gamers are gathered at least once a week at a Magic night or Warhammer league at...

your FLGS.

So, how important is the FLGS to the rpg hobby now?

Nate :)
 
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Warhammer sales are exactly why WOTC is pushing miniatures, to cut into that "wargamer" market. Plus they are doing it with cheaper and pre-painted figures. Heck, even I am buying them in large numbers, and I have never bought large numbers of figures before. Just a few here and there, all Reaper or Warlord.

As for getting me into a second game, i will have to give LGS's points there. They got me into Synnibar, Shadowrun, Rifts, Aftermath, and others i no longer remember. However, friends got me into Travelller, MERP, Palladium, Paranoia, Tunnels and Trolls, and a few others I do not remember.

Bottom line, I will miss not having an LGS, a little. I like having my money go further a lot.

As for browsing in an LGS, between websites and ENworld reviews and just asking opinions of products on the various websites, no, I do not go to my LGS to "look over" new product.
 

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