Did the nerds win?

[CleverNickName]

That'd be incorrect. Villians & Vigilantes has some complex math going on (multiple ability score mods that are added & multiplied, the gem below for figuring out carrying capacity....)

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It's not alone, but there are several other (older) RPGs that can get a bit wild with math (and modifiers).

I feel like a lot of older games used math as a gatekeeping device, a way to keep certain people out (or at least, to limit their enjoyment.) Including algebraic expressions like this implies a certain level of education...which implies a certain age, and certain other factors. It's a good way to, um, limit the game's player base. IfyaknowwhatImean.

Or maybe it's all in my head. It's been 35 years and I'm still salty about other gamers teasing me for loving B/X and BECM, when they were all shifting over to AD&D. "That game is for kids!" or "Ha! We play Advanced, you probably wouldn't get it." Nerds are sometimes the worst.

 

[CleverNickName]

Also, if you don't read Questionable Content, you're missing out.
(That's me in the second panel. I'm Clinton.)

 

[Stormonu]

There is an element of gatekeeping to some of it, but a lot of the older RPG designs were heavily into the fantasy of simulating the experience, before computers could do that sort of thing quicker, faster and more interactively. Often, story seemed to be the side show to the perceived "realness" the game was trying to emulate and draw the DM into (the formulas felt like they were for the DM's "benefit", because such things "properly mimicked" the game's "reality").

It really seems like after the likes of White Wolf's appearance that system and mechanics fell to the side vs. the importance of story, so games started moving away from complexity of mechanics to better enabling storytelling. In a lot of ways, I think 3E D&D was the last major stab at simulationism for D&D.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

It really seems like after the likes of White Wolf's appearance that system and mechanics fell to the side

On the direct contrary, I think mechanics have actually become considerably more important - it's just those mechanics are now generally focused tightly on making the game do what it's intended to do - i.e. create a specific vibe/genre/etc. - rather than a broader notional "simulation" which was typically ill-focused, usually wavering between some peculiar and specific notion of "realism" and "emulating genre novels" (weirdly few early superhero RPGs rarely seemed to want to emulate comics!).

To put it another way, early mechanics were complicated because people didn't know what they were doing, rather than because they did.

 

[Umbran]

That compromise doesn't always have tobe to the way of those who prefer simple math and simple mechanics.

As I said, if you find the game that suits your needs, more power to you.

 

[TiQuinn]

This feels like it’s turned into a thread about THAC0.

 

[Umbran]

It really seems like after the likes of White Wolf's appearance that system and mechanics fell to the side vs. the importance of story, so games started moving away from complexity of mechanics to better enabling storytelling.

Elsewhere, I have noted that White Wolf made it clear that these differences existed in the market. But, there's solid evidence before then. DL1 - Dragons of Despair, the first Dragonlance module, was published in 1984. White Wolf's Vampire: The Masquerade didn't hit shelves until 1991.

 

[Micah Sweet]

There is an element of gatekeeping to some of it, but a lot of the older RPG designs were heavily into the fantasy of simulating the experience, before computers could do that sort of thing quicker, faster and more interactively. Often, story seemed to be the side show to the perceived "realness" the game was trying to emulate and draw the DM into (the formulas felt like they were for the DM's "benefit", because such things "properly mimicked" the game's "reality").

It really seems like after the likes of White Wolf's appearance that system and mechanics fell to the side vs. the importance of story, so games started moving away from complexity of mechanics to better enabling storytelling. In a lot of ways, I think 3E D&D was the last major stab at simulationism for D&D.

Yeah, and I think that's sad. As a simulationist, I absolutely value setting logic and "realism" over storytelling as an intentional goal of play, and sometimes more complexity (or even more math, though I acknowledge those are different) is required to meet that need than is offered in "the world's greatest role-playing game". Wanting to play what I like is not gatekeeping.

 

[Ombre29]

In Art & Arcana (featuring the history of D&D), they finish the book saying "geeks have inherited the earth" (because D&d and RPG in general) went from a nerd hobby to a mass hobby

 

[Stormonu]

Elsewhere, I have noted that White Wolf made it clear that these differences existed in the market. But, there's solid evidence before then. DL1 - Dragons of Despair, the first Dragonlance module, was published in 1984. White Wolf's Vampire: The Masquerade didn't hit shelves until 1991.

But Dragonlance, despite adding more story elements, didn't change the focus directly away from mechanics like the likes of Vampire did. The underlying D&D system was still in the designer/DM mindset of simulation, not storytelling (over mechanics).

I had an entire Vampire campaign were I can't remember any dice being rolled. Not session - campaign. Can't imagine that happening with the likes of D&D.