Did WotC underestimate the Paizo effect on 4E?

I honestly think if WotC was still WotC and not Hasbro, we'd be seeing their old pattern of buying Paizo out of business right about... yesterday.

WotC is a division of Hasbro. It's got it's own execs, staff, budgets, etc. Hasbro provides sales & business targets, I'm sure, but this recurring theme of Shadowrun-fueled nonsense that WotC is gamers-like-us and Hasbro is the evil-megacorp is tired and wholly unrealistic. Is it possible? Remotely, I suppose.

WotC makes it's own decisions - that's why they have their own execs. While it's possible they may have been given unrealistic targets by Hasbro, WotC is the one who would formulate the business plan on how to meet those targets. Otherwise, Hasbro's paying a lot of money for figureheads. I'm sure Hasbro has better things to do than micro-manage WotC.

Perhaps even plotting shadowruns against their rivals.... :)
 

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WotC is a division of Hasbro. It's got it's own execs, staff, budgets, etc. Hasbro provides sales & business targets, I'm sure, but this recurring theme of Shadowrun-fueled nonsense that WotC is gamers-like-us and Hasbro is the evil-megacorp is tired and wholly unrealistic. Is it possible? Remotely, I suppose.

WotC makes it's own decisions - that's why they have their own execs. While it's possible they may have been given unrealistic targets by Hasbro, WotC is the one who would formulate the business plan on how to meet those targets. Otherwise, Hasbro's paying a lot of money for figureheads. I'm sure Hasbro has better things to do than micro-manage WotC.

Perhaps even plotting shadowruns against their rivals.... :)

Uhhh... reread what I wrote? Before WotC was ever owned by a large corporation, it had a habit of buying out competitors*. It doesn't now (probably since WotC's competitors in cards and RPGs are such small fry as far as Hasbro is concerned).

I didn't make a single comment about executives, gamers vs. suits, megacorps, Shadowrun (ffs, no go away), or the current corporate culture at Hasbro. Whatever you're railing against, it ain't me.



* You may be familiar with a popular RPG previously owned by one of those competitors...
 


Uhhh... reread what I wrote? Before WotC was ever owned by a large corporation, it had a habit of buying out competitors*. It doesn't now (probably since WotC's competitors in cards and RPGs are such small fry as far as Hasbro is concerned).

I didn't make a single comment about executives, gamers vs. suits, megacorps, Shadowrun (ffs, no go away), or the current corporate culture at Hasbro. Whatever you're railing against, it ain't me.



* You may be familiar with a popular RPG previously owned by one of those competitors...

I saw the "when WotC was WotC and not Hasbro" as a continuation of the "Hasbro corporate speak" thread immediately preceding, rather than a pre-Hasbro buyout statement. My mistake.
 

missing the point

I think a lot of folks here are missing the actual initial point of hte thread. If WotC had had an actual appreciation for the Paizo factor, how would their business decisions surrounding 3.5/4e have looked different?

It's my personal belief that WotC had the impression that the DnD fanbase was theirs to do with as they would, and that there was no alternative to 4e. If they had an actual appreciation fo the fact that one (or more) of their OGL ecosystem would defect and cannibalize heir 4e migration with a successful OGL follow-on, then WotC might have moderated their "dramatic thought leadership" in 4e, and actually produced a product that the majority of their existing customer base might have found more appealing.
 

Some people have a (deserved) reputation for attempted WotC damage control. I wouldn't let it bother you. ;)

You mean me, perhaps? If so, let's not be passive-aggressive about it, please.

No, I don't do WotC damage control. I simply have a dislike for poorly founded arguments. Normally, the folks of EN World are actually pretty good at analysis and critical thinking, except when it comes to Gaming Business. In this one realm, we regularly fail to be able to recognize the difference between solid reliable information, and wild-headed inference. We make dire predictions and come to hefty conclusions based on hearsay and anecdote, treating it as if we've seen the balance sheets.

I find that disappointing, and try to inject more solid logic into the discussion.

If someone were trying to make similar accusations of abject failure of business sense on Paizo, I'd react similarly.
 

I think that there are two different conversations happening at the same time here.

1 - Is Paizo competing with WotC.
2 - Is Paizo competing (in a market-domination sense) with WotC.

In the first case, of course they are. Paizo saw an opening in the market (WotC moving to 4E and no longer supporting 3.5 and the OGL) and, LIsa and the other honchos at Paizo not being stupid, they took advantage of it. Having supported 3.5 for so long via the magazines, as well as the other supplements they published, they had a very good grip on the pulse of the market.

In the second case, I have great doubts that Paizo is competing with WotC for market share. (Note, this is not a slam against Paizo. They make good stuff.) I just find it very difficult to believe that Paizo, or, to be honest, any other RPG company, is in any sort of position to take significant amounts of RPG market share away from WotC.

Upon the release of 4E, did Paizo gain some customers that WotC lost?? But, and this is important, anyone who thinks that WotC released 4E expecting 100% customer retention is being rather unrealistic. They knew that they would lose customers when 4E released. The amount of money that WotC losing to Paizo is probably rather close to insignificant when compared to WotC D&D revenue as a whole. Now, that doesn't mean that WotC is not concerned with what Paizo is doing. They see the quality products that Paizo is putting out, look at them and ask, "Is there a reasonable return on investment if WotC puts forth the effort to do the same type of thing??" And that is what we don't know. What would be a highly successful product for Paizo would, if sold in identical amounts by WotC, probably be a flop. Again, this is not a slam against Paizo, they do great stuff, it is just the reality of the economics of the comparative sizes of the two compnies.

For those that want to do some quick math, the DDI subscribers group (which is only those people that both have an active subscription to DDI *and* have registered on the forums, according to WotC) currently has over 37,000 members. Who are currently paying between $6 and $10 a month in subscription fees.
 

It's my personal belief that WotC had the impression that the DnD fanbase was theirs to do with as they would, and that there was no alternative to 4e. If they had an actual appreciation fo the fact that one (or more) of their OGL ecosystem would defect and cannibalize heir 4e migration with a successful OGL follow-on, then WotC might have moderated their "dramatic thought leadership" in 4e, and actually produced a product that the majority of their existing customer base might have found more appealing.

I have my doubts. I find it hard to fathom that WotC couldn't see the competition they face from their own old products much less the products of other companies. Now, maybe they had fallen into a bit of a thought pattern based on the success of 3e's launch, that the success of 3e under WotC's stewardship did very well so 4e would as well. But that doesn't ring very true with me.

My guess would have more to do with the designers trying to come up with a game that worked well for their easiest-tapped feedback source, organized play, assuming it would be sufficiently representative to base a game around for the general market. 3e had gone through some pretty strict limiting to support Living Greyhawk in a reasonably balanced fashion. 4e has clearly been designed to make the sort of balance you want in organized play a central focus.
I think that may be a bit of a limited scope, personally, but it does serve to make a pretty robust skirmish subgame within D&D. I think that the designers made their choices honestly thinking they'd be good for the game, not because of some arrogant idea that their disgruntled (former-) customers would have no place to go. Most of the designers at WotC, I'm sure, play more than one RPG. They would know quite well that competitors (including their own previous editions) would exist even if they didn't know Paizo would become one of them.

I also think that there's a separate element at WotC, let's call them the business management side of things, who moved to keep WotC intellectual property home on the farm rather than releasing it for anyone else to run with. I think it's probably the business management end that is responsible for the GSL trouble and probably withdrawing PDFs from sale.

I can see why, taken together, one might see these moves indicating a certain arrogance, an entitlement to their base of customers who would follow the brand no matter what. But I really do think it's a stretch. I have no reason to believe the designers weren't honest and forthright in their attempt to improve the game.

Now, if WotC had correctly divined what would happen with a chunk of the fan base and Paizo, what would they have done? I honestly don't know. The designers might have designed the game for a little more backward compatibility, which would have been pretty easy to do with the flavor side of things if not mechanics. I have my doubts that the business side of things would have changed much, though.
 

Why? It was WotC's property, and they wanted to do something very different with it. What's crazy about taking it back so that they can do that?

I'm guessing it's the "something very different that they wanted to do" that bothers you.

Crazy in the sense of I think it was baldly a bad decision.
 

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