Different classes still get different HP: why?

[SteveC]

As I was posting to the Multiclassing thread, it occurred to me that 4E is removing almost all of the differences between the level progression for different classes.

BAB and saves are gone now: replaced with flat bonuses that are class abilities. Classes all have a standard progression of at-will, encounter and daily abilities, that are, apparently, intended to be balanced against each other. All classes are said to have access to rituals, which are purchased with cash.

Given that, why does a wizard get fewer HP than a fighter? Tradition? At this point I don't think so, really...so what does a wizard get to compensate for his continued lack of HP?

Your thoughts?

--Steve

 

[Moon-Lancer]

I think that later on, they will get stronger spells when compared to martial maneuvers. We have really only seen a side by side comparison of first level characters. in 3.5 if you compared a fighter to a wizard at first level, its not fully clear why the fighter has higher hit points.

 

[Incenjucar]

Wizards can do things like Fly in the air for five minutes and drop massive fireballs.

Fighters still have to tough things out and spend the whole day getting smashed in the face.

The wizard still has more oomph than the fighter, and it pays for it in vulnerability.

 

[Cadfan]

It has to do with how things scale. It has nothing to do with compensation, and everything to do with scaling HP so that ratios stay roughly the same across multiple levels.

Suppose a level 1 Fighter has 40 hp, and a level 1 Wizard has 25 HP (made up numbers for easy example). To keep "the math" equal, you'd want a higher level fighter to reach 80 hp at the same time the wizard reaches 50 hp, and so forth. So the fighter has to increase in hit points at a faster rate than the wizard.

Hit points versus attack damage is something that only really matters in terms of ratio, because that gets you to the REAL important number, which is "how many rounds of this can I take before I'm dead." Hit points versus AC matter in a direct comparison. To keep a ratio the same as one part increases, the other has to increase at a different rate. With direct comparisons, they have to increase at the same rate.

 

[Starbuck_II]

Given that, why does a wizard get fewer HP than a fighter? Tradition? At this point I don't think so, really...so what does a wizard get to compensate for his continued lack of HP?

Your thoughts?

--Steve

The Wizard gets 2 Dailys instead of 1 like everyone else. He does have to choose when he rest each time which he wants to prepare, but he gets double the daily. And dailys do seem stronger than encounter/at will.

 

[Doug McCrae]

what does a wizard get to compensate for his continued lack of HP?

Better powers.

 

[Voss]

Hp seem to be tied to role now. The closer you are expected to be to the melee line, the more HP you have. So, defenders have the most, and are supposed to attract attacks, then leaders (the warlord seems to be on the line with the fighter, and the cleric within 5 squares of the enemy), strikers manuevering into close range (well, except the ranger, but the rogue is in melee and the warlock wants to be within 10, if not closer), with the wizard in the back.

So the hit points follow that model.

 

[SteveC]

It seems like the assumption is that "wizards will have better powers," and to a certain extent I can see how this is true: I doubt we'll see a fighter flying or teleporting or planeshifting. At the same time, isn't that just like the old system where a wizard would pay now for getting the good stuff later on?

Perhaps a better idea would be to make the wizard pay for his abilities as he goes: suppose you get flying at level 15, teleport at level 20 and plane shift at level 25, why not have the wizard pay a HP tax to get those powers? I know that's perhaps a bit over metagamey, but haven't we left the days of "I'll suck now but be teh awesome later on!" behind us?

On the point of daily powers: the wizards from D&D Experience had the same number of dailys as everyone else, or else my GM did it wrong. If they actually get more daily powers, that would certainly be a reason for less HP: more boom!

--Steve

 

[Henry]

Ironically, in Original D&D, all characters got d6's for hit dice. In the moderator's D&D game with Gary last year, el-remmen, playing the mage, had more hit points than any of the three fighters in the game. It was the fact that they could wear heavier armor that saved them.

 

[brislove]

Ranged attacks, movement powers, defensive powers, targeting (generally) weaker defenses, abilities that can completely remove enemies from the encounter for a decent amount of time.

All of these things are reasons that wizards have less HP, but the most important reason is this.

Fighters are supposed to get attacked, they have abilities that promote them getting attacked, ect. Wizards have the exact opposite, they have abilities that prevent them from getting attacked (like invisibility, teleports and Fly).

You also can't deduce such things at first level. in 3.5 a wizard and a fighter had a difference of +1 bonus to hit on attacks 5%. Fighters are much better at first level then wizards in 3.5, but at level 20 wizards are so sickeningly powerful that epic level fighters aren't even on the radar.