doctorbadwolf
Heretic of The Seventh Circle
This idea works with, rather than competing against, all the rogue’s cool toys, and immediately feels like you’ve mastered Shadow Dancing, right?
D&D 5E Different Paths: Shadow Dancer Rogue
This goes back to what I was saying. You are converting your own shadow into a semi independent familiar. You could give it a range, a free attack like spiritual weapon but bonus action to move it. It can perform skills like an arcane tricksters mage hand and counts as an ally for sneak attacks. You could even allow it to sneak attack since it will attack on your turn so no stacking issues.
I like the idea of turning into a shadow as the capstone for the shadow dance. Stack on some resistances and extra rules as discussed above and it seems very cool. Are we still talking about framing the dance like the Bladesong. so it lasts for a minute and can be used X number of times per day? I like that idea a lot.
On the ranged weapon thing, I still disagree completely. The PHB defines ranged as applying to a weapon has has a range listed in parentheses and either the thrown or ammunition property. Ranged doesn't define the weapon, just the capability of making a type of attack: the definition of ranged weapon is "used to attack a target at a distance". There is no section of the rules that treats weapons with the ammunition property as different from one with the thrown property as regards attacking at range, and indeed both types can also be used to attack in melee. The only place in the book that even partially supports your reading of the RAW is the organization of the weapon list. The list doesn't supersede or replace the definitions or descriptors though. The list does not define the weapon, the properties define the weapon, and the properties of thrown weapons define them as ranged weapons in exactly the same way they define weapons with the ammunition property. There's nothing wrong with my reading of the RAW.
Try to define ranged weapon using the rules, but without reference to the weapon list and you'll see what I mean.
On the ranged weapon thing, I still disagree completely. The PHB defines ranged as applying to a weapon has has a range listed in parentheses and either the thrown or ammunition property. Ranged doesn't define the weapon, just the capability of making a type of attack: the definition of ranged weapon is "used to attack a target at a distance". There is no section of the rules that treats weapons with the ammunition property as different from one with the thrown property as regards attacking at range, and indeed both types can also be used to attack in melee. The only place in the book that even partially supports your reading of the RAW is the organization of the weapon list. The list doesn't supersede or replace the definitions or descriptors though. The list does not define the weapon, the properties define the weapon, and the properties of thrown weapons define them as ranged weapons in exactly the same way they define weapons with the ammunition property. There's nothing wrong with my reading of the RAW.
Try to define ranged weapon using the rules, but without reference to the weapon list and you'll see what I mean.
doctorbadwolf
Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I do still like the Bladesong as a basis for the Shadow Dance. I think we've got enough to put together a full writeup. I'm still recovering from surgery, but I'll see what I can do today or tomorrow. And then I'll consider a Shadow Hand subclass. I like the idea, but I think it merits level 3 foundation of a subclass status, and I don't think there is room for it and shadow dance in the same subclass at level 3, unless we nerf shadow dance.
About weapons.
The weapons don't exist without the weapons list. The weapons list tells you what each weapon is. You can't define any weapon without putting in the list. The ammunition property doesn't come into this anywhere, for any reason. The feat directly and explicitly references "ranged weapons" for the -5/+10 benefit. A weapon is only a ranged weapon if it is a weapon listed as a Ranged Weapon.
The Weapons table shows which weapons are melee weapons, and which are ranged weapons. That is what the rule is. Ranged weapons have XYZ rules, and here's a table showing which weapons are ranged weapons. The table is part of the rules. It's not just a visualization. The descriptive text above it even says, "The Weapons table shows the most common weapons used in the worlds of D&D, their price and weight, the damage deal when they hit, and any special properties they possess. Every weapon is classified as either melee or ranged." That means two things. First, that each weapon has a classification of either melee or ranged. An object doesn't go from melee weapon to ranged weapon depending on how it's used. Second, it sets up the table as showing what those classifications are.
This means that a dagger is a melee weapon, while a dart is a ranged weapon. You can throw darts at -5/+10 all day, because they are ranged weapons.
doctorbadwolf
Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I definately think that's worth doing, and I also think it's worthy of being the main focus of a rogue subclass.
I like that. let it also use your Reaction for Opportunity Attacks, increasing the chances of a reaction SA attack.
Such a thing could work with Shadow Dance as we have it now, but it would definately require losing something that is in there now. I really like the idea of just being free to fully have fun with the shadow double as a primary feature, instead.
Question for the thread: Should the guy who cloaks himself in shadow be the Shadow Dancer, or the person who animates their own [or an enemy's] shadow? The other subclass would be called a Shadow Hand.
You and I are going to disagree about the RAW all day I suspect. Here's my last word on it and we can back to talking about shadow dancing. The list headings do not define the weapons, the descriptors for each weapon do. The list is designed to save page space and so lists each weapon once, call it most common use if you will. If you read the actual rules for the weapons, which are determined by the descriptors, you'll find that your definition of ranged weapon is incorrect. The rules are actually quite clear, and daggers are ranged weapons.
Anyway, this isn't a thread about ranged weapon definitions, so I'm going to let this go and we can keep spitballing about cool stuff now. Partial apologies for the derailment.
On who should be the shadow dancer, my vote goes for the original ideas from this thread. My picture of ehat we were going for is pretty influenced by Erickson's Malazan books, and I'm quite fond of the dance mechanics we've ginned up so far. The shadow double is cool too, but he can be a different sublcass. IMO anyway.
Anyway, this isn't a thread about ranged weapon definitions, so I'm going to let this go and we can keep spitballing about cool stuff now. Partial apologies for the derailment.
On who should be the shadow dancer, my vote goes for the original ideas from this thread. My picture of ehat we were going for is pretty influenced by Erickson's Malazan books, and I'm quite fond of the dance mechanics we've ginned up so far. The shadow double is cool too, but he can be a different sublcass. IMO anyway.
doctorbadwolf
Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Yeah, I think that the double is best as a separate subclass where it can be the main focus, and that can be the Shadow Hand.
I’ll try to find time this week to write up the Shadow Dancer we have. Since it’s all about cloaking itself in shadow, the capstone I think will be becoming insubstantial, and increasing the bonus speed.
I’ll try to find time this week to write up the Shadow Dancer we have. Since it’s all about cloaking itself in shadow, the capstone I think will be becoming insubstantial, and increasing the bonus speed.
Part of that could be the ability to move through an opponent's square. It fits with the theme and is an established 5e ability for other classes. Did we ever decide out the massive mess of ideas we had what was actually going to into the capstone list of stuff? I know we had a ton of ideas...
doctorbadwolf
Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I think to keep it simple, in a subclass that is already full of things, we should keep the capstone as passive upgrades to the Shadow Dance.
When you reach level 17, you become a master of the Shadow Dance. You can use Shadow Dance an additional time, and your speed bonus while in dim light or darkness increases to 15ft. When you enter the Shadow Dance, you become a shadow creature. You gain Resistence to all damage except Radiant and Fire, and you gain Vulnerability to Radiant Damage. You can move through the space of any creature, and you when you Dash, your jump distance and height are doubled.
I had an idea for effective invisibility while in dim light or darkness, but I don't want to steal from the Gloomstalker, and I couldn't think of any other way to make it simple and not ridiculous.
