Difficult balance question

[Li Shenron]

If for some reason (not necessarily permanent) magic scrolls could not be scribed and wands could not be crafted for a very long time, what would be the effect on the campaign, especially from the PC's point of view?

The only very major problem IMO is for Wizards. Not just because they would waste a bonus feat (which could be simply replaced by the DM with something else). But because IMXP Scribe Scroll is one of the main part of being a Wizard, without scribing their feature of knowing many spells compared to sorcerers results seriously hampered. The other preparation-based spellcasters don't have such a terrible drawback if there are no scrolls in the world.

What do you think? Does this make sense at all?

Note that I assumed there aren't wands eithers, mostly because otherwise the obvious consequence of not being scrolls would be that everyone would start making wands (potions are much more limited).

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Now the second - more tricky - question is: in a situation with no scrolls normally available, what could be given to wizards to roughly compensate (not necessarily directly giving back the same feature through something else)?

What if the cost for scribing spells to the spellbook was taken away completely? Note that being no magic scrolls to copy spells from, the sources for new spells would be very limited, probably the only reliable sources would be other wizards' spellbooks.

This is very difficult for me to understand, at some moment it sounds so underpowering and at some other moment it sounds so overpowering! A Wizard would end up knowing even more spells, possibly getting closer to the number known by clerics and druid, which would increase even more his long-term versatility (although which extra spells she learns would be more random than before), but at the same time her short-term versatility would be hampered by the lack of scrolls.

Thoughts?

 

[Darklone]

I would simply see the wizard class vanishing from the world slowly.

 

[Liquidsabre]

The domain wizard from UA was a variant of the base class that adds a single set of domain spells that may be cast 1/day at each level (for slightly more, though limited, spellcasting) and are automatically added to the Wizard's list of spells (for a few extra spells, since it appears a Wizard will have so little access to spells). This variant is perfect for a relatively low-magic game so a wizard can still survive in a balanced way in the game. It might even be best to give the Wizard two domains if they have absolutely NO access to any other spells, their casting will be better plus they'll have access to more spells, both in a limited/controlled way but balanced for a low-magic world.

 

[Thanee]

I fail to see how this would have any great effect at all, actually.

Sure Scribe Scroll is nice, even very good, but it's hardly necessary for a wizard to be a viable character. A wizard works perfectly well without using that feat even once.

Not saying, that Scribe Scroll isn't good, and there shouldn't be some replacement, if you take it away, but it's not like the wizard becomes unplayable without that feat.

Of course, if scrolls wouldn't exist, wizards would need to use other methods to obtain spell knowledge, tho, the most usual way is to copy spells from other wizards spellbooks already (paying them for the service), anyways, unless, of course, you happen to find a huge amount of scrolls, which normally surely isn't the case. So, that wouldn't really change with scrolls being nonexistant. And finding spellbooks wouldn't become any more regular, why should it. Why would a wizard suddenly have more spellbooks or protect them any less?

The cost to scribe spells into one's spellbook should be dropped considerably, anyways. That cost is totally arbitrary and ridiculous. There is absolutely no reason for it, neither a logical one (Why does it cost MORE gold to write down a non-magical description of a spell, than a magical scroll of that spell!? What do you spend that money on, anyways? Ink? Special superexpensive ink, because with the other you cannot... uhm... write down letters, numbers and runes? And if you need that superspecial ink, why don't you need superspecial paper as well? This so makes no sense. ), nor any game-balance reason.

We have cut it to 1/10th of the regular amount since the first time we played D&D3E and that's working absolutely fine. Wizards are in no way "better" than before, they are only more fun to play and are able to use their advantage, without spending piles of gold to get there (which everyone else can spend to obtain potions and whatnot, which has basically the same effect of granting flexibility).

The only changes are, that wizards are given the opportunity to use some less frequently useful spells, which is only an improvement for the gameplay, and that wizards are not the only class which has considerably less wealth per level, since they have to spend one third of their income on fueling their class abilities unlike any other class.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Li Shenron]

A wizard works perfectly well without using that feat even once.

In our experience we have found Scribe Scroll to be a terrific inherent part of the whole Wizard strategy, used to scribe those spells which you need only occasionally and keep the few slots available for daily-useful spells. When we realized long ago how useful it was, wizards characters became much more appreciated.

At high levels it becomes less important, both because slots per day are not few anymore and because the cost to scribe high-level spells is considerably greater.

And finding spellbooks wouldn't become any more regular, why should it. Why would a wizard suddenly have more spellbooks or protect them any less?

I didn't mean that before, but now that I think, since copying spellbooks would became free, every wizard would probably keep several backups at home and travel with a more handy grimoire.

There is absolutely no reason for it...

The official reason is indeed very bad-flavored as you explain, and leaves so many open logical questions like the ones you mentioned, which can only be explained with more bad-flavor arbitrary explanations.

Since the start of 3ed (not knowing how it was explained in AD&D) we always said that the cost was for experiments and research rather than scribing itself.

 

[Thanee]

Since the start of 3ed (not knowing how it was explained in AD&D) we always said that the cost was for experiments and research rather than scribing itself.

That doesn't work either, since you have to pay the same cost to even copy a spell from your own spellbook into another. Which clearly cannot require any sort of research.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

In our experience we have found Scribe Scroll to be a terrific inherent part of the whole Wizard strategy, used to scribe those spells which you need only occasionally and keep the few slots available for daily-useful spells. When we realized long ago how useful it was, wizards characters became much more appreciated.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely know how much it adds to the wizard, especially at lower levels, but it is still not required for the wizard to make a great, useful and even fun character.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Li Shenron]

That doesn't work either, since you have to pay the same cost to even copy a spell from your own spellbook into another. Which clearly cannot require any sort of research.

Yes we know that, but since we always go quite easy on spellbooks (hey, didn't I mentioned yet that we all hate the spellbook rules? ), it never happened that someone had to copy his own spells.

 

[Li Shenron]

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely know how much it adds to the wizard, especially at lower levels, but it is still not required for the wizard to make a great, useful and even fun character.

I think I didn't get you wrong. But I am convinced that a low level wizard, who knows many spells but casts only a very few per day, if she doesn't take advantage from scribing scrolls of the spells which she cannot prepare, she is forsaking her best spellcasting feature which is exactly in the number of spells known

Making a direct comparison may not be the right thing, as it is still subject to circumstances, but...

Wiz1 = 2-3 spells/day & 6-7 spells known
Sor1 = 4 spells/day & 2 spells known
(not counting cantrips)

If you only cast from your spell slots, you are always using about half the spells you known.

 

[Darklone]

Right, Li. Given time and money, a wizard can usually match a sorcerers machine gun firepower with his prepared spells while he still has all known spells as reserve on scrolls for emergency cases.