Difficulty Numbers: Scaling, or Static?

[LordEntrails]

Static. A cliff does not get harder to climb or a ravine harder to jump or a lock to pick the better you get at doing so.
What's the point of levelling up if you still have ~50% chance of doing something regardless of level?

 

[LordEntrails]

I mean how actual peak capacity works, for both mind and body, and as how we get older both begin to fail us even when our level of experience should see us through.

Hmm, if only some RPG had something like ageing tables...

 

[Reynard]

Hmm, if only some RPG had something like ageing tables...

A -1 to Con doesn't have much effect on 15th level.

 

[djotaku]

Personally, I prefer static DCs as framed by the original post, as it seems like everyone else does.

I do think though that scaling DCs are kind of an innevitable consequence of a high-variance resolution mechanic like a d20, and high power level scaling.

@djotaku makes the important observation that

Which is true. A professional rock climber will (almost) always succeed at climbing walls that an amateur like me will always fail at. In fact, a professional will probably always succeed at tasks that a hobbyist will always fail at, and the hobbyist will (almost) always succeed at tasks that an amateur will (almost) always fail at.

For a d20 system to accommodate this, a regular professional would need something like a +35 modifier to their roll. If the system wants to facilitate a zero-to-hero story arc, they need to scale their bonuses from around +5 to around +35 as they level up. That means an interesting challenge for a high-level character will be completely inacessible for a low-level character, and an interesting challenge for a low-level character will be trivial for a high-level character. So in order for the game to stay interesting, the DCs will need to scale with the PCs' levels. Hopefully, there's some in-universe justification for this, like low-level characters climbing fences, and high-level characters climbing smooth faced buildings. The low-level thief steals from peasants in the dark, and the high level thief steals from the King in broad daylight.

Some alternatives are narrowing the range of play, using different dice, and auto-succeed.

Some games narrow the range of play, having PCs start out as competant hobbyists, instead of amateurs with potential. This works pretty well as long as you don't care about the zero-to-hero arc. Depending on implementation, it also runs the risk of flattening out character diversity. If every character is at least competant at everything, there's less to differentiate my character from yours.

Other games just use different dice. With a d20, a +5 bonus turns your 50% chance of success to a 25% chance of success. With 3d6, that +5 turns 50% into a ~95% chance of success. Because of the bell curve, you reach "almost always succeed" a lot sooner, and flat DCs stay relevant a lot longer. Some groups like the unpredictability of the d20 though and like seeing exciting crazy results on a nat 1 or nat 20.

Finally, there's the auto-succeed. Some games, explicitly or implicitly, tell the GM to just not roll for easy tasks, regardless of what probability of failure the dice would give. There's always a subjective judgement call here, and in my opinion, it "feels" kind of inelegant, but it works for plenty of groups.

2 quick comments on what you said based on my post:

1. "So in order for the game to stay interesting, the DCs will need to scale with the PCs' levels." - I think this is probably more true with a video game where you might go back to the early levels and suddenly grinding is hard because you're killing enemies that only give like 5 XP. I would imagine if the TTRPG true goes back to the early areas it's either for RP reasons - maybe they want to see the consequences of them clearing out the baddies or because new, more powerful baddies have come to the area. But otherwise, maybe they are still scaling a fence, but now they feel like a bad-ass for not finding it as hard? Obviously the whole campaign can't be like that. If they don't have any more threats that scale to them, I think it's time for them to retire as heroes. (or anti-heroes) and that campaign is over - time to roll new heroes.

2. Some, but not all, of this especially in the video game example I gave might have more to do with XP leveling vs milestone leveling.

Bonus thing because it's not on topic:

"If every character is at least competant at everything, there's less to differentiate my character from yours."

One thing I like about Tales of the Valiant's variant of 5e and the Paizo TTRPGs is that the way character creation works it tends to emphasize a LOT more variety in the character created. (At least if you aren't playing with power gamers and/or min/maxxers)

 

[Spellslinging Sellsword]

The amount of execution required to succeed is static, but the ability to execute at that level is relative. If we say that skill is on a scale of 1-10 and the task requires minimal execution, then someone who has achieved skill level 10 should automatically succeed whereas someone with skill level 1 would still have to roll. Flipping it around, if the task requires master level execution, then someone with a skill level of 1 wouldn't have the ability to even roll as their skill is so far below the execution required that they can't do it whereas someone with a skill level 10 might still need to roll to see if they succeed.

 

[stonehead]

2 quick comments on what you said based on my post:

1. "So in order for the game to stay interesting, the DCs will need to scale with the PCs' levels." - I think this is probably more true with a video game where you might go back to the early levels and suddenly grinding is hard because you're killing enemies that only give like 5 XP. I would imagine if the TTRPG true goes back to the early areas it's either for RP reasons - maybe they want to see the consequences of them clearing out the baddies or because new, more powerful baddies have come to the area. But otherwise, maybe they are still scaling a fence, but now they feel like a bad-ass for not finding it as hard? Obviously the whole campaign can't be like that. If they don't have any more threats that scale to them, I think it's time for them to retire as heroes. (or anti-heroes) and that campaign is over - time to roll new heroes.

2. Some, but not all, of this especially in the video game example I gave might have more to do with XP leveling vs milestone leveling.

Bonus thing because it's not on topic:

"If every character is at least competant at everything, there's less to differentiate my character from yours."

One thing I like about Tales of the Valiant's variant of 5e and the Paizo TTRPGs is that the way character creation works it tends to emphasize a LOT more variety in the character created. (At least if you aren't playing with power gamers and/or min/maxxers)

That's true, what I described isn't hard scaling DCs, because the in-universe challenge also scales. The original post of this thread framed it in a way that makes scaling DCs almost entirely undesirable.

I have seen more general complaints though, that levelling up is pointless because when you gain a level and your attack bonus goes up by one, the monsters you fight will also have one higher armor class, so it all cancels out. That wouldn't technically be scaling DCs as described in the original post, but plenty of people would still call it scaling DCs.

I would say though that I think this still applies to ttrpgs, especially if you're running a module or adventure path. Adventure paths are designed basically just like video games. All of the houses in the first town will have fences, in the second town they'll have rough hewn stone, and in the final town they'll have smooth marble walls.

A skilled GM can expand the options of the party over the course of the campaign. At low levels, if you need to get inside a castle, you'll need to get an invitation, or sneak in the front door, but at higher levels, just scaling the outside and climbing through a window becomes a valid option. At low levels, your crimes need to avoid the notice of the town guards, but at high levels just fighting them off becomes an option. Actually pulling this off in the chaos of a real world table is a lot harder than describing it in text though, so I don't blame GMs for soft-scaling the DCs like I described.