Difficulty Numbers: Scaling, or Static?

[Reynard]

In Shadowdark, “Moderate” is DC 12, “Difficult” is DC 15, and “Extreme” is DC 18.

5e’s DCs are nonsensically high, because they were ported in from 3e, which grabbed them (unchanged) from WEG Star Wars and kludged the skill point system to make the numbers line up.

How hard should hard be?

 

[Scribe]

How hard should hard be?

Yeah a lot of people do not seem to consider success rates and all that.

I'm happy with how SD does it, fixed numbers.

 

[500 Toads]

They seem pretty fine to me. Like the hard DC of 20 still means that a completely untrained person with no natural aptitude for the thing still has a chance to make it.

nods And if we assume a citizen has at least some training for a +2 proficiency bonus and maybe a +1 or +2 in the ability score, that DC of 20 is yet more attainable -- hard, but possible.

D&D 5E adventuring parties can be set up with access to quite a few buffs (bardic inspiration, superiority dice, guidance, psionic energy dice, what-not... and in the case of stealth, the absolutely massive +10 from Pass Without Trace) and other ways to affect the dice (Lucky feat, divination dice, heroic inspiration, etc) to the point where 20 can seem easy to reach.

 

[JohnSnow]

nods And if we assume a citizen has at least some training for a +2 proficiency bonus and maybe a +1 or +2 in the ability score, that DC of 20 is yet more attainable -- hard, but possible.

D&D 5E adventuring parties can be set up with access to quite a few buffs (bardic inspiration, superiority dice, guidance, psionic energy dice, what-not... and in the case of stealth, the absolutely massive +10 from Pass Without Trace) and other ways to affect the dice (Lucky feat, divination dice, heroic inspiration, etc) to the point where 20 can seem easy to reach.

All of which, I would argue, has effectively rendered bounded accuracy meaningless.

A task that can’t be accomplished by a person without a hefty attribute bonus or by expending character resources isn’t “Hard,” it’s “nearly impossible.”

Adjusting DCs upwards because PC’s have significant bonuses is metagaming.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

All of which, I would argue, has effectively rendered bounded accuracy meaningless.

A task that can’t be accomplished by a person without a hefty attribute bonus or by expending character resources isn’t “Hard,” it’s “nearly impossible.”

Adjusting DCs upwards because PC’s have significant bonuses is metagaming.

Bounded accuracy doesn't mean that everyone has the same chances at everything. Like I said, a total noob can hit 20, and in my game where characters are now level 14, they beat 30 quite often. And at any level the dice roll contributes more than the bonus. But of course in a game where characters eventually become mythic heroes, some things need to be beyond the unskilled. What's the point of levelling and investing in skills otherwise?

 

[zakael19]

Adjusting DCs upwards because PC’s have significant bonuses is metagaming.

Do you also not adjust monster’s DCs, or their saves, or damage, or hit rates as the system assumed CR increases?

 

[Maxperson]

They seem pretty fine to me. Like the hard DC of 20 still means that a completely untrained person with no natural aptitude for the thing still has a chance to make it.

Yeah. The DCs are right in line with where they should be.

 

[Maxperson]

All of which, I would argue, has effectively rendered bounded accuracy meaningless.

Bounded accuracy does not take stat bonuses, magic items, proficiency, or skill bonuses into consideration by design. Basically, bounded accuracy is pretty much on the DM side of things. On the player side it considers class abilities.

A task that can’t be accomplished by a person without a hefty attribute bonus or by expending character resources isn’t “Hard,” it’s “nearly impossible.”

I mean, a peasant with +0 can hit the hard DC one out of 20 attempts. That's freaking awesome for someone with no skill or natural aptitude at all.

You also seem to be forgetting that most skills allow retries until successful unless failure has meaning. So that peasant with thieves' tools and no training sitting in front of a DC 20 lock automatically succeeds if he isn't pressured somehow. He's eventually going to roll that natural 20.