Dilettante & Implements

[Gloombunny]

Warlocks can use wands. Wizard powers can be used with wands. What's the problem?

Technically? Being able to apply the enhancement bonus from a wand to wizard powers with the Implement tag is a wizard class feature. It's in the wizard class writeup, it's explicitly granted by the wizard multiclass feat, and it's mentioned again in the magic items section about wands.

Now, the only situation I can think of where it makes any difference that it works this way and not the way you describe is with Dilettante, and IMO, it's very clearly more balanced and more fun to allow the half-elf to use the bonus than to disallow, so that's how I'd rule.

 

[Ander00]

I wouldn't. Why would you?

Because it will only add to the fun of the half-elf character's player, and is unlikely to break anything. If you don't want the player to benefit from an implement's special abilities, that is easy enough to rule out. Other racial abilities stay relevant, so I don't see any reason for an already pretty weak one to get even weaker as the game progresses.

Warlocks can use wands. Wizard powers can be used with wands. What's the problem?

As has been pointed out, technically the benefits of using an implement only apply to powers of the class that grants you the ability to use it.


cheers

 

[Keenath]

A half-elf fighter who takes Thunderwave doesn't have the ability to use implements. He just doesn't. He's not "proficient", so to speak.

Similarly, a wizard who selects a fighter power for Dilletante isn't proficient with any weapons except dagger and staff, and has to use one of those.

That said -- I'd surely allow a fighter to gain proficiency with an implement by taking a feat, just like a wizard can become proficient with a greataxe.

 

[fissionessence]

A half-elf fighter who takes Thunderwave doesn't have the ability to use implements. He just doesn't. He's not "proficient", so to speak.

Similarly, a wizard who selects a fighter power for Dilletante isn't proficient with any weapons except dagger and staff, and has to use one of those.

These issues you mention are actually very different situations from each other. I agree with your first statement that a fighter doesn't have the ability to use an implement with his Thunderwave, as per RAW. But using the term 'proficient' to describe his ability or inability to do so is misleading. A weapon's proficiency bonus is not commensurate to the ability to wield an implement.

Anyone can use any weapon. A proficiency, though, just gives the character a proficiency bonus. Implements have no parallel to this proficiency bonus. You are either able to wield the implement or you can't; this ability is granted by one's class (or multiclass feat, or in the case of dilettante and many understanding DMs, DM permission).

If a half-elf Wizard used dilettante to get Cleave, he may not be proficient with the weapon he chooses to use, but if he's using a magic weapon, he still gets the magic item enhancement bonus. A half-elf fighter with Thunderwave, if he can't use an implement, has no opportunity to gain a magic item enhancement bonus because he can't use any magic items with the power as per RAW (as we determined during your first point).

In summation, weapon proficiency bonuses are completely irrelevant to this discussion. It's the issue of magic item enhancement bonuses that we're concerned with, although weapon proficiencies can be confusing so I understand the mix-up.

~ fissionessence

 

[abyssaldeath]

A wizard's powers can be used with implements. The only time the type of implement comes into play is choosing an impliment a character can use. In the OP's case, the warlock would get an implement bonus while casting the spell with any implement the warlock is allowed to use.

 

[PrecociousApprentice]

I think that I would rule this way as well. It is not RAW, but I think that there are way too many nerfs on spellcasters.

This doesn't mean that I want spellcasters to outshine meleers. I just want equal treatment.

The Implement is the weapon of the caster. Magic item enhancement bonuses are built into the math of the system. Not allowing use of any implement you can use with any implement keyword weapon is harsh. Especially in the case of a wand weilding warlock that has the dilettante racial power and selects a wizard power. He can't even use a wand? He has to take a multiclass feat, and then he can? Where is the balance in this?

A fighter with the dilettante racial ability that chooses a paladin, ranger, warlord, cleric, or rogue weapon keyword power doesn't get nerfed in this way. Why no love for the implement users. I think that this and all other implement-weapon discrepencies should be equalized.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Balance is not an issue at all ... it's simply how a racial power works.
Nobody is forcing you to have physical stats as a Dragonborn .. so your breath weapon is terrible. It's simply how a racial power works.
A Human Fighter can also put his +2 in Intelligence. That's simply how the racial trait works.

Folks are free to houserule 1337 skillz for a dilettante if they choose, but just remember that an Eternal Seeker doesn't gain the ability to use implements.

 

[Jhaelen]

Maybe we should turn this into a poll?

I wouldn't allow a half-elf to gain the implement benefits for her dilettante power.

 

[spanglemaker]

I thought that the PHB said that you may only use Dilletante for Level 1 at Will powers from classes converting them to an Encounter Power. A Half Elf should not be able to duplicate any racial powers. Half Elves may take any Human or Elven Feat.

It may be nerfed, but the PHB does say that Warlock Implements work with Warlock Powers. A Wizard is lucky- not only do they have Implement Mastery, but their use of Implements works for all their arcane powers.

Half Elf Wand or Staff Wizard who takes one of the following Warlock Powers (Dire Radiance, Eldritch Blast, Eyebite, Hellish Rebuke) would IMO make use of their Wand Implement and could even use Wand of Accuracy or Staff of Defence from their Implement Mastery.

A Half Elf Orb Wizard could use their implement because Warlock Spells are Arcane BUT they may not use their Implement Mastery with a Warlock Spell, as Orb of Imposition only works with Wizard Spells.

The Poor Half Elf Warlock taking a Wizard At Will power would have to take the Arcane Initiate feat to gain any benefit from Wizardly implements. The Wand they may have been using is now an effective implement for their Wizard spells- which may be 2 at Will Wizard Spells cast as Encounter.

I love Wizards and Warlocks, the Warlock seems to have more tricks up his sleeve, but the Wizard has a variety of destructive weapons which are effective in Control. To me it looks like the Wizard is still the master of the Arcane, and is reaping the benefits- especially if you include Rituals. But Warlocks are good at what they do.

Feats seem to be even more useful in 4E and are and the whole concept seems to be thematically sound.

Important thing to note- Dilettante or Dabbler, the ability is not intended to be an Uber Powerful thig, but a way of expressing diverse interests. A Half Elf Rogue who had looked at the arcane arts before dedicating themselves to religon and the Raven Queen, might be : Rogue with Eyebite or Magic Missile (Dilettante) then Initiate of Faith. As he advances through adventuring, he develops Clerical powers through multiclass feats, his Rogue abilities grow too. But his early exploration of the arcane would not necessarily improve his ability granted through Dilettante.

Thats only my take on things, obviously each DM is free to run things the way they want.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Under implements in the wizard section, it also says you get enhancement bonus to wizard powers.
So no free wand use for dilettante warlock power theft.