Diplomacy: A game-wrecker?

[DM-Frost]

I'm running a campaign right now in which I have just recently designed a city that the characters are using as a base of operations. I've thoroughly developed the city, coming up with almost a hundred interactive NPC's as well as businesses, inns, guilds, and a full-on government. This was in the hope that the players would interact with the city and be drawn into it. However, they have, unfortunately, been conditioned to disregard things like that and move toward the "technical side" of interaction.

The largest problem I've found is with the diplomacy skill. I introduce them to an NPC, whether important or not, and the first words out of their mouths are "Diplomacy check to improve his/her mood." This is done for everything. Improving moods, bartering prices, gaining allies. The words are just "Diplomacy check."

And while I despise diplomacy the most, it isn't limited to that single skill. More and more, when they come back to town with loot, I hear the words "I buy a (insert magic item here)." No interaction. Nothing.

I feel like my effort is being wasted.

My big question is: does anyone know a way to get them away from this (particularly diplomacy) and condition them to actually role-play? To interact? I don't want to make it a requirement. I want it to be a choice on their part.

 

[Jhaelen]

And while I despise diplomacy the most, it isn't limited to that single skill. More and more, when they come back to town with loot, I hear the words "I buy a (insert magic item here)." No interaction. Nothing.

I feel like my effort is being wasted.

My big question is: does anyone know a way to get them away from this (particularly diplomacy) and condition them to actually role-play? To interact? I don't want to make it a requirement. I want it to be a choice on their part.

Sure! Don't allow any skill check to succeed if they don't actually describe what they're doing. Ask them how they're trying to influence someone using diplomacy.

It's also perfectly fine to rule that some npcs cannot be influenced using diplomacy in certain situations. Using diplomacy requires time and requires the npc to actually listen to the pcs.

Similarly, you could ask them where they intend to buy magic items. Just because a town is supposed to have a certain item available for sale doesn't mean it should be easy to figure out where. Note, that it's also unrealistic to assume that every item will always be on stock. Even if there are dedicated magic item shops, it's a lot more likely that they'll only create items on order.

 

[Maidhc O Casain]

You could also rule that Diplomacy checks without role play don't get the advantage of the CHA bonuses - it's in the interaction between character and NPC that the character's personality becomes an influence.

A similar ruling regarding the +3 Class Skill bonus could also be realistically justified, and would strip the roll down to d20+Skill Ranks.

That way you're not eliminating the choice to just state 'Diplomacy Check,' but you're making role play a little more attractive.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Generally, people should roleplay or similarily describe what they are actually trying to do. In combat, people cannot just simply add an attack roll against an NPC. They have to move into a position from which they can actually attack, for example. And sometimes there is an obstacle they first have to clear, or that at least grants the NPC some cover or concealment.

Social situations are less strictly defined as combat situations, but that doesn't mean you can't require at least the equivalent of "movement" and interaction with the environment. Such an equivalent would be describing what they want to say instead of merely stating their intended goals. If they don't say the right thing*, they either can't roll Diplomacy Checks (the target is out of their reach) or it becomes more difficult (the target enjoys cover or concealment). And sometimes, they just use the right arguments and words and get a bonus. (They flank the opponent, or the opponent is flat-footed).

*) What the "right thing" is, of course, should be discoverable by the players. Do they need to listen around what the guy in question wants? Do they have to ask him directly? Do they first have to do something? A set of tasks might be required that will cause the PC to interact with the environment.

Of course, another aspect to consider is to ask yourself or your players - why do the players use this approach? Why do they not bother to roleplay? Are they not interested in it? Do they feel insecure about it and rather rely on a d20 roll and their skill modifier rather than being able to "guess" what you want them to say in a social encounter? Do they mistrust your interpretation of their words and descriptions? Do they feel bored by "acting in character" and would rather kill some monsters?

Maybe the answers can guide you to some further solutions. Of course, it's possible you will realize that your group (or part of your group) just doesn't care for what you had in mind. But you might be able to find a compromises so that you both can have fun with the game.

 

[Raven Crowking]

You could have the players discover that they've gained a reputation as sycophants due to all their butt-kissing...er, diplomacy. Real diplomacy also requires give-and-take. You can always ask the players what they are offering to make the NPC feel better about, say, being poor. Or being ugly and lonely. Or whatever.

The answer to "I buy an X" is "Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be anyone looking to sell one at the city gates. However, some unsavory types seem to have caught on that you have money to burn....."


RC

 

[Dimitris]

...
The answer to "I buy an X" is "Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be anyone looking to sell one at the city gates. However, some unsavory types seem to have caught on that you have money to burn....."


RC

I like this idea a lot !

 

[Starbuck_II]

My big question is: does anyone know a way to get them away from this (particularly diplomacy) and condition them to actually role-play? To interact? I don't want to make it a requirement. I want it to be a choice on their part.

Do you make them lift a rock or actually swing a sword when they attack?
You need a incentive to go beyond (since likely they don't have Cha bonus as high as characters).
You shold tell them if they actually roleplay what they doing they get a bonus. You could tell them it doesn't have to be shakespeare, but at least try.

Example: when meeting the new NPC they say, they want to role diplomacy to improve his mood. You say do you want to at least tell me what the gist you are trying to convey before you roll.

That way they don't have to act it all out but you get general idea (thew roll determines how good they conveyed that)

 

[Raven Crowking]

Do you make them lift a rock or actually swing a sword when they attack?

Yes. We had three decapitations and a papercut last session.

Seriously, though, if a ruleset allows for choices beyond "I attack", then things like "diplomacy" can have more options as well. An "incentive to go beyond" can consist of a bonus for doing so, or a penalty for not doing so. That penalty can be up to and including not allowing the attempt without more direction.

(In combat, do you allow "I attack" without specifying who you attack, or what you attack them with?)

When the player says "I roll diplomacy to improve his mood", the DM can and should give some details about what that mood is, including any obvious cause. Otherwise, what does the player have to work with? Indeed, the mood of the NPC should be apparent through roleplay if the DM expects the players to respond with roleplay.

Finally, it is noteworthy that NPCs may swing swords at PCs, but few players feel it fair to have NPCs "roll diplomacy to improve the PCs mood" in order to gain the kinds of benefits the players are hoping for. If your players want to treat roleplaying like combat, it should go both ways -- when they are diplomacied into giving their magic goodies away with the same discount that they are hoping to gain from the NPCs, they might have a change of heart.


RC

 

[Mark Chance]

My big question is: does anyone know a way to get them away from this (particularly diplomacy) and condition them to actually role-play? To interact? I don't want to make it a requirement. I want it to be a choice on their part.

Back when I was still teaching, I'd get complaints from parents about their kids and their kids' sense of entitlement. My advice to you is the same as it was to them.

Say, "No."

"I buy [magic item]."

Say, "No."

"Diplomacy check. I got X total to improve his mood."

Say, "No."

When a player starts to catch on, switch your answer.

"Greetings," says the player. "What I fine establishment you have here! I've not seen an inventory quite this diverse in a while. Tell me your secret, please."

"The shopkeeper says," replies DM. "'Thank you, good sir. We do take pride in our work here.'"

Player asks, "Can I make a Diplomacy check to improve his mood?"

DM says, "Yes."

Rinse and repeat as needed.

 

[Skeld]

A few years ago, spurred by the same kind of problem you're having, I started to require my players to put more effort in Diplomacy. We're not a roleplay-heavy group (in the sense that we have many discussions in character and such), but this has worked well for us.

Whenever a Diplomacy check is required or desired, the player making the check has to give me an explanation of what he's trying to convey. I'll assign modifiers as needed, depending on the expectation of the NPC in question. Also, if a particular player seems to be running the discussion at the table, I make that player attempt the skill check. That was it doesn't always default to the player with the best mechanical advantage, but goes to the player driving the ooc discussion. (So in my current Star Wars game, it's not always the Noble making checks; sometimes it's the Soldier because that playing can be a bit mouthy ).

Finally, you might try going to an opposed roll system instead of the default system in the rules. Those static DCs (the ones the players have memorized) look liek big, fat targets to players. They're probably thinking, "as long as I can get my modifer up to a +19, I can make most any Diplomacy check I need." In an opposed system, they won't know what target they're trying to hit and it can change for each NPC. A shopkeeper for instance is going to be good at haggling.

Also don't forget that sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander: have an NPC walk up and diplomacize them into doing some slightly humiliating. Maybe an old woman needs some rats cleaned out of her basement...

-Skeld