Diplomacy and Taking 10

[RigaMortus2]

I personally wouldn't allow taking 20 because, as written under the "Try Again" portion of Diplomacy, "Even if the initial Diplomacy check succeeds, the other character can be persuaded only so far, and a retry may do more harm than good. If the initial check fails, the other character has probably become more firmly committed to his position, and a retry is futile."

Hmmm... I don't know. I see your point, but I think it can go either way. The only way to "fail" a Diplomacy check is either rolling below the set DC for changing an attitude, or rolling lower than the opposed roll when trying to negotiate or resolve a sitation where you and the target have opposing sides.

If I am trying to shift attitudes, there is a penalty for failure if I roll bad enough (I can shift them down a notch).

If I am trying to plead my case or win an arguement and roll bad, the target just becomes more firmly committed to his position. I don't know if that is a penalty per se. I mean, you can always retry, it is just advised not to. If you win the roll, you can also try again, but why would you want to if you are winning your case?

 

[Kafkonia]

You can take 10 but you can't take 20.

Rogues get Skill Mastery, by the way, which allows them to take 10 even while distracted or threatened. If you twinked it out enough, you could reasonably ensure that you could pull it off in combat without a roll. You'd need a really high Diplomacy mod, due to the -10 penalty for rushing it, though. It'd be like Charm Person, only better.

Well, the -10 penalty offsets the Take 10, leaving you with a result based solely on your Diplomacy score.

 

[RedFox]

Hmmm... I don't know. I see your point, but I think it can go either way. The only way to "fail" a Diplomacy check is either rolling below the set DC for changing an attitude, or rolling lower than the opposed roll when trying to negotiate or resolve a sitation where you and the target have opposing sides.

If I am trying to shift attitudes, there is a penalty for failure if I roll bad enough (I can shift them down a notch).

If I am trying to plead my case or win an arguement and roll bad, the target just becomes more firmly committed to his position. I don't know if that is a penalty per se. I mean, you can always retry, it is just advised not to. If you win the roll, you can also try again, but why would you want to if you are winning your case?

If things become worse when you fail, it's a penalty. If there's a penalty for failure, you cannot take 20. You cannot take 20 on a Diplomacy check.

 

[irdeggman]

While it doesn't specifically state you can't take 20 on a skill that can't be retried the wording of the take 20 option covers making repeated attempts until you eventually roll a 20 - so if you can't retry diplomacy you can't take 20.

Diplomacy skill write up says that retries are not recommended - so the option is up to the DM really.

 

[Kaleon Moonshae]

I'm glad it was mentioned recently, but just to make sure it's clear I will state it the way it's always been stated to me. Taking 20 literally means you roll a 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20..... that is why it takes *20* times as long because you are practicing the idea that you will get every roll on a d20 after rolling it 20 times. It is meant for things that are infinitely passive (read that as infinitely rare). Under this idea your first roll will assume you roll a "1" which will nullify any further roll you make because of not being able to retry diplomacy.

As a house rule, I may allow this in situations where prolonged diplomacy is used and single failures aren't as important (such as trade or treaty negotiations) and where you are assumed to start with an unlikely demand and then mediate from there. In other words I would allow my players to take 20 when haggling with a merchant... but that merchant would still get "20" rolls as well.

 

[Kaleon Moonshae]

actually thinking about this...

as a house rule I think I would just give the player the option of using his "modifier" as his roll with the understanding that his opponent would do the same (i.e. they would both figuratively take "20")

 

[irdeggman]

Just to reiterate that natural "1" is not an automatic failure, nor is a ntural "20" an automatic success on a skill check.

Only saving throws and to hit rolls have that rule. A lot of people confuse the two. I don't ow many times I have had players say "I rolled a natural 20" on a skill check and never provide the result. Basically assuming that the nat 20 would be an automatic success.

 

[Kaleon Moonshae]

Just to reiterate that natural "1" is not an automatic failure, nor is a ntural "20" an automatic success on a skill check.

Only saving throws and to hit rolls have that rule. A lot of people confuse the two. I don't ow many times I have had players say "I rolled a natural 20" on a skill check and never provide the result. Basically assuming that the nat 20 would be an automatic success.

Completely agree with you. I to, sometimes use the house rule of 1 = -10 to your check and rerolling 20s, adding the new score to the old. But only in certain circumstances.

 

[Kaleon Moonshae]

Just to reiterate that natural "1" is not an automatic failure, nor is a ntural "20" an automatic success on a skill check.

Only saving throws and to hit rolls have that rule. A lot of people confuse the two. I don't ow many times I have had players say "I rolled a natural 20" on a skill check and never provide the result. Basically assuming that the nat 20 would be an automatic success.

Also, I wasn't meaning that a "1" was an auto failure, only that rolling a 1 usually means you have failed because you haven't rolled high enough since you would need a bonus of up itno the mid to high 20s to do anything at all with a roll of 1.

 

[Amitiel]

Really taking 10 on diplomacy is fine in certain situations like say getting the ettiquette right greeting nobility. Or making a speech or argument they've made before. A good house rule to have though is that players get bonus's if the actually can make a compelling argument or case for what they're making the roll for they get mods for how good their argument was.