Diplomacy - How to Make the merely Unfriendly actively Hostile?

[Cobblestone]

The Diplomacy rules are all hunky-dory for getting NPCs to like you, but how does one go about getting a group of NPCs to actively dislike you, to the point of putting themselves in danger to do you harm?

Looking at the DC charts, the DC for getting an NPC who is Unfriendly to become Hostile, is "less than 5." This seems a little too easy.

What I'm looking for is a well-rationed DC for convincing NPCs to attack (sort of like Dragonlance Kender' Taunt ability, but without any supernatural backing). Also, what would the DC be for getting an NPC to hate a third party, if the third party wasn't able to [verbally] defend themselves (and so using opposed Diplomacy checks wouldn't apply)?

Any suggestions?

Any suggestions that aren't "role-play it out" or "stick a knife in 'em?"

Thanks,

C-stone

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Use the rules for improving attitude, but for each step you would normally improve, move up the hostility. Though maybe what would be a lot better would be using Bluff (possibly using both the Diplomacy DC and the opponents Sense Motive), since you seem to be attempting to con your enemy into striking against you.

Likewise, if you want to change the attitude of your target to a third party, use the higher DC based on the targets attitude to you and the targets attitude towards the third party.
For each step of improved gained according to the table, adjust the attitude to the third party. If you find it a little bit too easy, consider a -2 to -5 penalty to the check.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Actively Hostile doesn't mean that the NPC will attack you. If it isn't the appropriate time, place, etc, a Hostile NPC can use a variety of methods at their disposal to cause you harm. They aren't mindless slaves of their anger (I would imagine the DC to get them to that point would be around as high as the epic DC to make someone your Fanatic follower who will die for you or kill their own sister without question).

 

[Cobblestone]

Backwards Diplomacy

Actively Hostile doesn't mean that the NPC will attack you.

Good point. And something that should probably be an epic task if attempted without magical aid.

Still, the situation will sometimes arise when you are in disguise as your most hated enemy, and it's just too tempting to try and turn their friends into enemies.

Use the rules for improving attitude, but for each step you would normally improve, move up the hostility.

This is probably the mechanic I will propose. I was just curious if there was anything quasi-official or extrapolate-able.

Though maybe what would be a lot better would be using Bluff (possibly using both the Diplomacy DC and the opponents Sense Motive), since you seem to be attempting to con your enemy into striking against you.

I envisioned it as a Dangerous Liaisons type of thing--knowing just the right words to get people to truly loathe you, to say things so hateful or inflammatory that they could not be quickly or easily forgotten. Bluffing always seemed like a temporary fix.

Thank you for your thoughtful replies.

Good gaming,

C-Stone

 

[mvincent]

I'm looking for is a well-rationed DC for convincing NPCs to attack (sort of like Dragonlance Kender' Taunt ability, but without any supernatural backing).

Taunting is described in the 3.5 Dragonlance campaign setting book (p.29), but is not described as supernatural (and anyone can do it... Kenders just have a natural +4 to the roll).

It is basically just a contest of bluff check vs. sense motive (standard action) that acts like a mild intimidate. Taunted enemies tend to attack you, but aren't required to.

 

[Kerrick]

I was working on an alternate Diplomacy system awhile back... it kind of stalled, though I'd really like to finish it. Basically, Diplomacy was divided into two parts - persuasion (changing someone's attitude for a short time) and influence (changing someone's attitude over the long term). What you're talking about would be persuasion.

What you would do is make a Diplomacy check vs. 1d20 + NPC’s level/HD + Wis modifier + 0 (for Hostile; if you want the person to immediately come after you, I'd set the modifier at +10 or +20).

If the check fails by 4 or less, the NPC is not swayed either way, but the character can make another attempt. If the check fails by 5 or more, the NPC sees through the blatant attempt to manipulate him; his attitude toward the PC worsens by one step, but in this case he wouldn't be tempted into attacking.

The NPC’s new attitude remains for 1d6+10 minutes, then returns to normal. If the check succeeds by 10 or more, the time is doubled. The PC can make one attempt every ten minutes (an attempt requires a full minute) as long as he doesn’t fail by 5 or more (see above), but he can’t improve the NPC’s attitude more than two steps higher than its original position in a 24-hour period.

 

[moritheil]

It's easy to get people to hate you. You need a negative Diplomacy check or higher (see the chart.) There's nothing really wrong with that: just let yourself go, be an ass, and suffer the consequences. Of course, if this is out of character for the one you are portraying, your disguise checks get harder.

To get them to attack you requires a feat like Goad.

 

[Set]

In feudal era Japan, it was considered an artform to subtley insult someone so badly that they drew their weapon and gave you an excuse to have them killed for breach of etiquette...

I'd use Diplomacy for that as well, and allow it just to work backwards. You can make someone fanatically lay down their life for you, there's no balance reason you shouldn't be able to make them charge you screaming about what you just said about their mother.

 

[moritheil]

You can make someone fanatically lay down their life for you, there's no balance reason you shouldn't be able to make them charge you screaming about what you just said about their mother.

Except that it had better not be so easy as to have a negative DC, in terms of balance, when it takes such a high DC to make someone zealous for you.