Dire is not a size, Wildshape question

[Voneth]

Last night, in an underwater adventure, my 14th level druid tired to wildshape into a Dire Shark. My GM said, no because the animal is size Huge. Being the player, I of couse took the opposite stance that being offer the option of Dire meant any Dire creature.

While the DM made his point by saying that could be outlandish because any animal, including a Sperm Whale, could have a Dire equivilent, I think he was being overcautious. I didn't anything wrong with using MM Dire animals as uses for wildshape.

So can I only Wildshape into tiny to Large Dire animals? Or can I wildshape into any published Dire animals, but regular Huge animals are not available?

For back history, the DM and I both have repuations at two ends of the spectrum. He's known for being very strict in the rules (he's not into creative spell use beyond stacking effects) and I am known for creative solutions that bend the rules.

What this means it that the DM and I have had disagreements before about the druid class. When I suggested having a dire animal companion, it was a no until MotW came out. Then it was pretty easy to find a dire animal.

 

[CRGreathouse]

I'll side with your DM in this case.

 

[drnuncheon]

Yeah, I have to go with the DM too.

All the Wild Shape (dire) does is remove the restriction "but not a dire animal" from the Wild Shape ability - the size restrictions are still in place.

J

(BTW - going your way, you would be able to turn into a Dire shark, but not the weaker Huge Shark)

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I you - in the far "epic" future of your druid, want to be able to wildshape into anything, get the Alertness and Endurance Feat, and thus qualify for the shifter prestige class.

 

[Pielorinho]

When you reached 8th level, should you have been able to change into a dire bat, since you could now shift into a large animal?

If not, you shouldn't be able to shift into a dire huge animal just because you can shift into a dire animal.

I agree with your DM on this as well. And I play a druid .

Daniel

(P.S. you can always summon sharks and cast animal growth on them. Party time!)

 

[dcollins]

Dire animals are still of type "animal".

It wouldn't make any sense to allow arbitrary dire animals at 12th level, but restrict Huge animals until 15th. The first is a subset of the second.

 

[Pielorinho]

Dire animals are still of type "animal".

It wouldn't make any sense to allow arbitrary dire animals at 12th level, but restrict Huge animals until 15th. The first is a subset of the second.

eh? Are you saying that dire animals are a subset of huge animals? How do dire rats, dire weasels, and dire bats (to take a few examples) fit into this?

The way I see it, a fifth level druid can turn into any animal that is:
-not dire
-size small or medium.

At eighth level, it changes to:
-not dire
-size small, medium, or large.

At eleventh level, it changes to:
-not dire
-size tiny, small, medium, or large.

At twelfth level, it changes to:
-size tiny, small, medium, or large.

At fifteenth level, it changes to:
-size tiny, small, medium, large, or huge.

The additions don't remove any restrictions other than the ones they specifically remove.

Daniel

 

[Kae'Yoss]

What the DM said.

Size restrictions still apply.

Otherwise, we'll have to many dire elephants in low-level campaigns....

 

[Plane Sailing]

eh? Are you saying that dire animals are a subset of huge animals? How do dire rats, dire weasels, and dire bats (to take a few examples) fit into this?

I think he is saying that Dire animals are a subset of animals, and thus the ability to select dire animals is subject to the extant restrictions on animal size.

So he was agreeing with you

 

[Pielorinho]

So he was agreeing with you

D'oh! That makes perfect sense. I was having a brainfart, and was completely unable to parse dcollin's post into anything that made any kind of sense.

Thanks for helping me out, Planesailing (Icebear? Ice sailing?), and my apologies for the misunderstanding, dcollins.

Daniel