Disappointed in 4e

[Fifth Element]

Assuming for the moment that Hypersmurf's got this right (since I haven't seen any other response to it and can't currently check for myself).

When any creature is brought to 0 hit points (optionally as low as -3 hit points from the same blow which brought the total to 0), it is unconscious. In each of the next succeeding rounds 1 additional (negative) point will be lost until -10 is reached and the creature dies.

So yes, it appears he's right. You only get to go to -10 if you went to exactly 0 first (or optionally, -1, -2 or -3). If you go from 1 to -4 in a single blow, you're just dead.

 

[Raven Crowking]

(1) Simply change (A) to read "Anything that has no possibility of impacting resolution is colour", and go from there. Problem solved.

See, here is where I cut & paste:

(B.1.c) The set consisting of "that which has no potential to impact resolution" is an extremely small, and perhaps an empty, set.​

And Crom knows that

You either use your action or you do not, there is no try. If you use your move action to get up, even if you are knocked back down, you have still used your move action.

has been answered more than once.

A: You either use your action or you do not, there is no try. If you use your move action to get up, even if you are knocked back down, you have still used your move action.

A.1: If an action must be successfully completed to be considered an action

A.1.a: The world has no actions which are attempted, but not successfully completed, or

A.1.b: The world has actions which are attempted, but not successfully completed, but which are not considered actions.​

The problems with this viewpoint are so obvious and pervasive that I have no interest in running or playing in a game where either A.1.a or A.1.b are true.

YMMV.

One might then say that an action is used either (1) when the action is initiated or (2) when the action is resolved.

1. Getting up is an action.

2. Getting up is initiated with the decision to get up.

3. Getting up is resolved when you either succeed in getting up or you do not.​

Either way, in LostSoul's colour, a decision is made (fighter attempts to get up) and a resolution is determined (he fails).


RC

 

[fanboy2000]

Twice, and it creeped me out both times. If you have it more often, you have my sympathy.

It doesn't creep me out for some reason. I don't know why.

However, sleep paralysis occurs when your mind is conscious, even though you cannot move. It doesn't speak, IMHO, to LostSoul's "The rules that say you're unconscious can be ignored if it doesn't impact resolution, but the rules that say you can't act cannot be ignored even if they don't impact resolution, unless I happen to like the outcome" definition of colour.

My point has noting to do with impacting resolution. PCs are assumed to do lots of things that impact the resolution of things like combat, but those things aren't called actions in game terms. For example, a PC can think and make decision without taking an action. A PC can look at a situation and decide that, rather than going at the first possible opportunity, he or she can wait until after someone else does. This decision isn't considered an action under the rules. Delay is labeled no action on both page 288 and 289 of the 4e PHB.

Common sense tells me that delaying impacts combat. If it didn't, no one would chose to do it.

I think that struggling with unconsciousness isn't an action, it's no action under the game rules. Like breathing, struggling with unconsciousness is just something a person does automatically.

3.5 had the same concept. The 3.5 PHB defined delay as not an action. The 3.5 rules compendium expanded the number of things that aren't actions.

 

[LostSoul]

One might then say that an action is used either (1) when the action is initiated or (2) when the action is resolved.

1. Getting up is an action.

2. Getting up is initiated with the decision to get up.

3. Getting up is resolved when you either succeed in getting up or you do not.​

Either way, in LostSoul's colour, a decision is made (fighter attempts to get up) and a resolution is determined (he fails).

Well...

1. Getting up is an action.

2. Resolution is Initated when your turn comes up in combat.

3. Getting up is an invalid Intent when you're Unconcious (barring some powers, I think).

4. What can our Intent be while Unconcious? Only to not die.

5. Moving closer to death or not is resolved with the Death Save. We roll, and Exceute the resolution.

6. We look at the result of the die roll. What's the Effect? Failed. How do we narrate that failure? "The Fighter tries to get up, but can't."​

This is different from actually having the Intent of getting up, which might be resolved in a different way. Move action to get up, trigger the Ogre's Immediate Reaction, fail.

I guess you could describe the Effect as jig-winking, but really, that's just stupid.

 

[Fifth Element]

The problems with this viewpoint are so obvious and pervasive that I have no interest in running or playing in a game where either A.1.a or A.1.b are true.

Once again, I think you're using "in-world" definitions of "actions" when we're actually discussing the "game mechanics" definition.

One might then say that an action is used either (1) when the action is initiated or (2) when the action is resolved.

I think, given the presence of immediate interrupt actions, we need to go with (1), since an intended action might never be resolved due to changing circumstances created by an immediate interrupt. You can "lose" you action, but the action is still used.

1. Getting up is an action.

2. Getting up is initiated with the decision to get up.

3. Getting up is resolved when you either succeed in getting up or you do not.​

​

This doesn't work in mechanical terms. For starters, you need to wait for your turn in the initiative order. Simply deciding what you want to do does not initiate an action. I suppose you could argue that you can only validly decide on what to do when it's your turn, but of course that's wrong too due to immediate actions.

And in game terms, what you can decide to do is often restricted. In this case, you cannot decide to get up, because it's not an option. You cannot take that action.

In fact, the character has no decisions to make. He has only one thing to do, and that's roll a death save. And that's not optional.

Describing it colourfully is a different matter.

And by colourfully, I don't mean ridiculously in a way that does not fit the intent or the spirit of the rules.

Either way, in LostSoul's colour, a decision is made (fighter attempts to get up) and a resolution is determined (he fails).

This doesn't fit with (1) above. Again, we're using the game mechanics definition of action here, since we're discussing game mechanics. The fighter never initiates an action, because he cannot get up, per the rules. The action is not initiated, so there is no action.

Describing it colourfully is a different matter.

And by colourfully, I don't mean ridiculously in a way that does not fit the intent or the spirit of the rules.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I guess you could describe the Effect as jig-winking

So we agree?

but really, that's just stupid.

Wrongbadfun?


RC

 

[Fifth Element]

Wrongbadfun?

Is there an equivalent to Godwin's Law for invoking badwrongfun?

 

[Raven Crowking]

And by colourfully, I don't mean ridiculously in a way that does not fit the intent or the spirit of the rules.

Go back up to our discussion of 1e hp, and your viewpoint of what healing represents.

You asked why your viewpoint wasn't valid.

You've just answered it.


RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

Is there an equivalent to Godwin's Law for invoking badwrongfun?

If there is, there ought to be one for invoking "That's stupid!"

They are, after all, the flip sides of each other.



RC

 

[Fifth Element]

If there is, there ought to be one for invoking "That's stupid!"

They are, after all, the flip sides of each other.

Not necessarily. But often.

Where there are two diametrically opposed viewpoints, the truth does not necessarily lie somewhere in the middle. It often does, but not necessarily.