Disappointed in 4e

[Hypersmurf]

"Trying to get up", in this case, has no impact on resolution. It's colour.

"Trying to get up", when it does impact resolution, is not colour. Then we use the resolution mechanics to see what happens.

Right. In the Powers Subsystem thread, I quoted the example from the fight just finished, where Assem used Twin Strike to drop a pineapple on the raptor's head with a thrown chakram. The mechanics we used? Attack roll vs the raptor's AC, damage as per the chakram. If his attack roll hit the raptor's AC, we assumed that the pineapple was severed from the tree, fell, and hit the raptor.

Now, if instead, he was throwing his chakram to drop a pineapple from the tree in order to impress the natives with his pineapple-dropping ability, the mechanic I'd use might be an Intimidate check vs the natives' Will save. If he beats their Will save, he hits the pineapple.

If he was throwing his chakram to drop a pineapple from the tree because you were all starving to death, the mechanic I'd use might be a Nature check against a fixed DC (15 if he's just trying to feed himself, 25 if he's trying to feed all of you). If he makes the check, pineapples rain from the sky as the chakram severs stems. If he fails, it turns out the stems are tougher than that, or the pineapples are too tricky to hit.

And if he was just chopping down pineapples as colourful punctuation during a scene of slogging through jungle? No check required. Assem's a badass, so we can assume he can hit a pineapple.

Does it offend my 3E sensibilities that the mechanical resolution for the identical action changes, depending on the reason the action is being attempted? Some, yeah... although I'd note that even in 3E, the Take 10 mechanic means that the colourful punctuation might be immediately successful, while the pressure situation of impressing the natives might require a roll.

Does it offend my 4E sensibilities that the mechanical resolution for the identical action changes, depending on the reason the action is being attempted? Not in the slightest.

-Hyp.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Right. In the Powers Subsystem thread, I quoted the example from the fight just finished, where Assem used Twin Strike to drop a pineapple on the raptor's head with a thrown chakram. The mechanics we used? Attack roll vs the raptor's AC, damage as per the chakram. If his attack roll hit the raptor's AC, we assumed that the pineapple was severed from the tree, fell, and hit the raptor.

Now, if instead, he was throwing his chakram to drop a pineapple from the tree in order to impress the natives with his pineapple-dropping ability, the mechanic I'd use might be an Intimidate check vs the natives' Will save. If he beats their Will save, he hits the pineapple.

If he was throwing his chakram to drop a pineapple from the tree because you were all starving to death, the mechanic I'd use might be a Nature check against a fixed DC (15 if he's just trying to feed himself, 25 if he's trying to feed all of you). If he makes the check, pineapples rain from the sky as the chakram severs stems. If he fails, it turns out the stems are tougher than that, or the pineapples are too tricky to hit.

And if he was just chopping down pineapples as colourful punctuation during a scene of slogging through jungle? No check required. Assem's a badass, so we can assume he can hit a pineapple.

Does it offend my 3E sensibilities that the mechanical resolution for the identical action changes, depending on the reason the action is being attempted? Some, yeah... although I'd note that even in 3E, the Take 10 mechanic means that the colourful punctuation might be immediately successful, while the pressure situation of impressing the natives might require a roll.

Does it offend my 4E sensibilities that the mechanical resolution for the identical action changes, depending on the reason the action is being attempted? Not in the slightest.

-Hyp.

Psst. Pineapples don't grow on trees.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Psst. Pineapples don't grow on trees.

Yeah, in the combat, it was actually a giant spiky durian pod, but I couldn't be bothered typing all that out every time

-Hyp.

 

[tomBitonti]

Right. In the Powers Subsystem thread, I quoted the example from the fight just finished, where Assem used Twin Strike to drop a pineapple on the raptor's head with a thrown chakram. The mechanics we used? Attack roll vs the raptor's AC, damage as per the chakram. If his attack roll hit the raptor's AC, we assumed that the pineapple was severed from the tree, fell, and hit the raptor.

Now, if instead, he was throwing his chakram to drop a pineapple from the tree in order to impress the natives with his pineapple-dropping ability, the mechanic I'd use might be an Intimidate check vs the natives' Will save. If he beats their Will save, he hits the pineapple.

If he was throwing his chakram to drop a pineapple from the tree because you were all starving to death, the mechanic I'd use might be a Nature check against a fixed DC (15 if he's just trying to feed himself, 25 if he's trying to feed all of you). If he makes the check, pineapples rain from the sky as the chakram severs stems. If he fails, it turns out the stems are tougher than that, or the pineapples are too tricky to hit.

And if he was just chopping down pineapples as colourful punctuation during a scene of slogging through jungle? No check required. Assem's a badass, so we can assume he can hit a pineapple.

Does it offend my 3E sensibilities that the mechanical resolution for the identical action changes, depending on the reason the action is being attempted? Some, yeah... although I'd note that even in 3E, the Take 10 mechanic means that the colourful punctuation might be immediately successful, while the pressure situation of impressing the natives might require a roll.

Does it offend my 4E sensibilities that the mechanical resolution for the identical action changes, depending on the reason the action is being attempted? Not in the slightest.

-Hyp.

Well, there is some messiness if the effects are combined.

"I'd like to show off to the natives by throwing my Chakram to knock a coconut out of the tree and have it fall and hit the Raptor on the head."

And, there is somewhat of a difference re: Knocking the same coconut out of a tree so to have food and avoid starving. The nature check is more representative of finding the coconut, not so much knocking it out of the tree. A Nature check subsumes the details of finding and obtaining food. Now, if a special tool were required, say, a Chakham to knock coconuts out of trees, or a shovel to dig up roots, then having two checks makes sense (or, granting a circumstance bonus or penalty, as appropriate).

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Yeah, in the combat, it was actually a giant spiky durian pod, but I couldn't be bothered typing all that out every time

-Hyp.

I see. I probably would have decided that was more of a ranged burst attack, given the smell of those things.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Well, there is some messiness if the effects are combined.

"I'd like to show off to the natives by throwing my Chakram to knock a coconut out of the tree and have it fall and hit the Raptor on the head."

Sure. If it came up, I'd probably do something like resolve it as per the attack on the Raptor, and if the attack is successful, it will grant a Cool Bonus to the next social skill roll he makes with regard to the natives.

And, there is somewhat of a difference re: Knocking the same coconut out of a tree so to have food and avoid starving. The nature check is more representative of finding the coconut, not so much knocking it out of the tree. A Nature check subsumes the details of finding and obtaining food.

On a successful Nature check, the task of [finding and obtaining food] was achieved. On a failed Nature check, the task of [finding and obtaining food] was not achieved.

-Hyp.

 

[Raven Crowking]

These two situations use different mechanics to resolve them. If you are able to stand up, you stand up. The ogre might then attempt to push you down, but you don't need to roll a die to see if you stand.

We are playing in two different paradigms.

IMHO, "I do X" always means "I attempt to do X". You don't automatically stand, and then the ogre attempts to push you down any more than you automatically hit.


RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

I don't think you have addressed it, as I've been waiting for a response.

Since I've addressed this specifically during this discussion, in this thread or the other, I'll not do so again.

(Unless I go to the effort to diagram the argument.....which will be Cut & Paste.)

RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

Attacking an orc is an action. Failure to attack an orc is not an action.

Trying to stand up is an action. Failure to try to stand up is not an action.

Oh, I see. You're equivocating on both "try" and "failure".

RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

"Trying to get up", in this case, has no impact on resolution. It's colour.

"Trying to get up", when it does impact resolution, is not colour. Then we use the resolution mechanics to see what happens.

You're conflating two arguments.

(1) If "trying to get up" is colour if it doesn't impact resolution, so is dancing a jig and winking at the elf.

(2) If dancing a jig and winking at the elf doesn't impact resolution, but is still a rules violation, because the character is attempting an action -- whether it succeeds or not, whether it impacts resolution or not -- then so is trying to get up.

What I am saying is "One way or the other. You can't have it both ways."

(Which, AFAICT, you've agreed with, although you think the jig-winking is silly.)


RC