Discern Location and extra-dimensional spaces

[marune]

Ok, I need help to deal with Discern Location kind of spells and extra-dimensional spaces.

For example, a creature/object in the extra-dimensional spaces created with a Rope Trick spell, a Bag of Holding, and Handy Haversack or a Portable Hole.

In my high-level campaign, the PCs try to hide corpse/stolen goods in those spaces to avoid some divination and I want to know how much it works.

If needed, I'll copy from the SRD the spells and magic items description in this thread.

 

[3d6]

Well, rope trick says "creatures in the extradimensional space are hidden, beyond the reach of spells (including divinations), unless those spells work across planes". Discern location has a range of unlimited, which is defined as "the spell reaches anywhere on the same plane of existence."

Therefore, because discern location doesn't "work across planes", it doesn't work on things inside an extradimensional space. (Of course, discern location does tell you "the plane of existence where the target lies", which wouldn't be very useful if it only works on the same plane, but nothing in the spell specifically overrides the normal rules for unlimited range.)

 

[AuraSeer]

I think the description of discern location necessarily implies that it works across planes. Though doesn't say that in so many words, it does tell you which plane the target is on-- which, as 3d6 points out, would be useless if it only worked on the caster's current plane.

On the other hand, the spell only specifies the target's location within a plane. It doesn't tell you how you might get to that plane yourself, or where the portal might be located.

So if the target is in a teeny little self-contained plane, discern location might not be very useful. Finding out that your quarry is "in an extradimensional space, in the center of the floor, ten feet from the door out" won't be much help in tracking it down.

To put it another way: the caster will probably find out that the stolen gems are stuck in someone's portable hole, but it's much harder to find out where the hole is and who's carrying it.

 

[marune]

...

So if the target is in a teeny little self-contained plane, discern location might not be very useful. Finding out that your quarry is "in an extradimensional space, in the center of the floor, ten feet from the door out" won't be much help in tracking it down.

To put it another way: the caster will probably find out that the stolen gems are stuck in someone's portable hole, but it's much harder to find out where the hole is and who's carrying it.

Your two last paragraphs are a bit contradictory, does the spell say "where" is located the extradimensional space or not? If the caster knows that the item is in a e.d. space in a particuliar house in a given city, country, etc. it's much easier than just : "In a e.d. space".

 

[AuraSeer]

There's no contradiction. The spell says where the item is located within the enclosing space. It doesn't say where the space itself is.

Consider this situation: some pesky archmage steals the Crown Jewels and retreats to his own private demiplane. It's a very small plane, only a mile in diameter, but the owner has built a palace for himself in the middle. There is only one way in and out, a permanent portal that links the demiplane to a fixed spot on the Prime.

The royal wizard casts discern location to try and find the stolen jewels. The spell reveals that they are "in the demiplane of Azgablar, in the palace called Quiet Retreat, in the second-floor guest room, in a glass display case." It doesn't say how to get to Azgablar, nor how to find the portal leading there, but if you can reach the plane you know where to find the jewels.

Make sense so far? Now take the palace away, and replace the demiplane with an even smaller one-- the interior of a portable hole. The jewels are "in an extradimensional space, in a metal box, on the ground, five feet from the exit portal" (because in a space that small, the portal is the only landmark).

So if you get to the right ED space, you know exactly where the jewels are. It's finding the right space that presents the difficulty, especially since the only portal is folded up in somebody's pocket.

 

[mvincent]

the interior of a portable hole. The jewels are "in an extradimensional space, in a metal box, on the ground, five feet from the exit portal" (because in a space that small, the portal is the only landmark).

So if you get to the right ED space, you know exactly where the jewels are. It's finding the right space that presents the difficulty, especially since the only portal is folded up in somebody's pocket.

Discern Location is a powerful spell. I'm pretty darn certain that it could tell you the name of the person carrying the portable hole and where he is:
"The spell reveals the name of the creature or object’s location (place, name, business name, building name, or the like), community, county (or similar political division), country, continent, and the plane of existence where the target lies."

It is an 8th level divination spell and does this via magic, greater explanation isn't really needed. It'll do the job. Trying to circumvent this by such means as you are suggesting seems pretty cheesy (and likely to annoy your DM if you are a player, or your players if you are a DM)

 

[Nail]

Consider: Can you cast Gate to open a portal into an extradimensional space? If so, knowing where the bag of holding is on the Prime material plane is irrelevant.

 

[AuraSeer]

It is an 8th level divination spell and does this via magic, greater explanation isn't really needed. It'll do the job.

That's a fine assertion. Can you prove it?

My argument is based on the spell description. Discern location clearly tells you what plane to find the item on, but nothing indicates that it also tells you how to get to that plane. The general rule is that spells don't work across planar boundaries unless otherwise specified, so it looks to me like you should only get info on one plane at a time.

Lots of things work "via magic," but they also follow the rules in the book. I happen to think this interpretation fits the rules best. You're welcome to disagree of course, but it'd help if you had evidence to support your position.

 

[mvincent]

That's a fine assertion. Can you prove it?

Feel free to ask Hypersmurf, Infiniti2000, customer support, Skip Williams or Andy Collins if you desire. I have no personal desire to change your mind. I was merely interested in warning you how others are likely to react to possible cheesiness.

The general rule is that spells don't work across planar boundaries unless otherwise specified, so it looks to me like you should only get info on one plane at a time.

This spell already does state that it works across planar boundaries. If it did (as you believe) only affect one plane at a time, that would still actually be unrelated to the general rule you speak of anyways.

Regardless, play as you like. I'm fairly done with it.

 

[nameless]

Considering every extradimensional space is unique, just saying "a portable hole" doesn't really identify which plane it is on, since that could be a lot of planes. Since the extradimensional space probably doesn't have a name, it needs to be identified in some way relative to the owner, most likely. Just saying "the portable hole dimension of Agronak's portable hole, in a locked steel box" is what I'm thinking.