Discovery Trailer

Mallus

Legend
I think Dr. Culber will be fine. He’s in sickbay, Stamets is there, if not exactly present, so through some combination of technology, the power of love, and perhaps even mycelium-powered timey-whimeyness Culber will be saved.

So Lorca might not be the Federation’s shadiest Captain - he might a fairly noble guy from the Terran Empire? I am intrigued by this.

Ash, though? Over-complicated. Though I like the actor.
 

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I think there is one argument against Lorca being from the Mirror Universe - it required Burnham's intervention to stop him from speaking to the Captain of the other ship. Of course, he could just have trusted her to figure out quickly enough.

But beware, just because he's a "rebel" against the Terran Empire doesn't mean that Mirror Lorca was a good person - he might just have wanted to become Emperor himself.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
I had forgotten about this mess of a show.

Mirror Universe - yawn. No surprise there. And a poor idea for a show that's so shady and edgy already.

Tyler. Snooze. Stop trying to make his story interesting. We called Voq months ago.

Re: the death of progressive characters (women, gay men etc) - I guess they get a pass on that assuming you're not really dead if you die in the mirror universe.

I'm seriously considering to skip actually watching this from now on, just reading the reviews while I wait for the next season of Orville, which turned out to be much better than one could hope.

(Though not nearly as awesome as USS Callister, which went right into my top list of Trek episodes ever! :) )
 

Ryujin

Legend
(Though not nearly as awesome as USS Callister, which went right into my top list of Trek episodes ever! :) )

I sort of wonder if Captain Daley, as someone who doesn't get the altruistic nature of The Federation, isn't one of the writers on "Discovery" ;)
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
Loved this episode. Discovery is getting better and better. Still looks as gorgeous as ever. This one was directed by Will Riker!

I have this weird hunch that 'our' Lorca might be the mirror Lorca. Not sure; just a feeling.

[Ah, just noticed you guys already said that!]

We already figured that Tyler is Voq; I'm curious as to whether he took a 'real' Tyler's place? Presumably there's a service record and such.

I'd love to actually see a Constitution-class starship in this series. I'm sure we will at some point.

Agonizer booths. Not fun!

The elevator fight was *really* well done. Trek is notions for its rubbishy fight scenes, but this one was extremely well choreographed, acted and shot.
 

Mallus

Legend
I think there is one argument against Lorca being from the Mirror Universe - it required Burnham's intervention to stop him from speaking to the Captain of the other ship. Of course, he could just have trusted her to figure out quickly enough.
Agreed. Lorca being a Mirror Universe native is ambiguous, at best. However, if we get a flashback of him shaving off his goatee in the next episode...

But beware, just because he's a "rebel" against the Terran Empire doesn't mean that Mirror Lorca was a good person - he might just have wanted to become Emperor himself.
True. I'm mainly going by Lorca's characterization by this point. We never see him as gonzo ruthless as a typical Terran Empire inhabitant. He's not space-racist against non-humans. He's *almost* acceptable as a wartime Starfleet captain with PTSD. But yeah, it could all be a pure-villain long-con. I'm hoping it's not though. Less interesting that way.
 

Hussar

Legend
Y'know, it never occurred to me that Tyler is Voq. Cool. Like the idea. And it fits in nicely with the notion of human looking Klingons.

But, where are you guys getting the idea that Lorca is a mirror universe Lorca?

Not entirely thrilled that they're dipping into the mirror universe already. I would have rather seen that a while later once the characters were a bit more developed. Love the call back to DS9 though. The fact that they're referencing the wrong Defiant is a nice Easter Egg for fans. Bit timey wimey though. At least they explicitly talk about it during the ep saying that there might be some sort of time distortion going on.
 

Caught up over December (in part so I could do a species write-up for the Kelpien and a couple Discovery ships for Star Trek Adventures).
In general, this episode was solid. I actually rather enjoyed it from start to finish.

People actually communicated and interacted like colleges. There wasn't forced animosity and conflict. When there was interpersonal drama—such as between Lorca and Dr. Culber—this wasn't forced and seemed natural, and Lorca responded in a believable, calming manner. While it does introduce the CW trademarked drama-through-secrets with Tyler having his personal issues, but his reluctance to talk can at least be explained by Voq blocking him from remembering.
And there was humour. Which is such a great tension breaker. And the bits with Tilly were gold. Again, because they're doing stuff with a character we actually care about and like.

And continuity! An acknowledgement of stuff that has come before but not just as an Easter Egg on a desk

Y'know, it never occurred to me that Tyler is Voq. Cool. Like the idea. And it fits in nicely with the notion of human looking Klingons.
There are some meta-clues based on the actor.
But the fact that Voq was in every episode until Tyler appeared, and Voq hasn't been seen since (after last being told he would need to sacrifice everything for his revenge), really suggests Voq went under the knife.

But, where are you guys getting the idea that Lorca is a mirror universe Lorca?
The Mirror Universe was teased very early, so people have been guessing for a while. The thought is that Lorca is such a tool, he must be from the Mirror Universe. Because, otherwise how would someone so dark be a captain?

Not entirely thrilled that they're dipping into the mirror universe already. I would have rather seen that a while later once the characters were a bit more developed. Love the call back to DS9 though. The fact that they're referencing the wrong Defiant is a nice Easter Egg for fans. Bit timey wimey though. At least they explicitly talk about it during the ep saying that there might be some sort of time distortion going on.
It's actually a nod to the Star Trek: Enterprise episodes set in the Mirror Universe, which itself ties into The Tholian Web. It's some pretty hefty continuity and almost a deep cut, given how few people watched Enterprise in its final season. But it's an example of using canon well, as you don't need to know why the ship is there to understand the episode and they explain enough really quickly. And even if someone just watched The Tholian Web, they'd be able to mentally bridge the gap.


I just hope Discovery can keep up the quality for the rest of the season.

It'd also be nice if the actually stopped and did some philosophising. If they looked at the Terran Empire and said "this is not what we want Starfleet to become." If this leads Lorca to some personal growth. I'd be nice if Discovery actually embraced and explored the thematic aspects of the show rather than just acknowledging they exist in a off-hand line of dialog and then letting them drop. Even Battlestar Galactica, as grimdark as it was, stopped and allowed Adama to give a speech about what was right and wrong.

And I also hope they don't just completely end up fridging Culper. (Not that I want the Spore Drive to also be able to raise the dead... but I expect that's what will happen.) Not every show needs to have a high death count. And especially not this early when it's not exactly rolling in expendable characters. It was shocking to kill support characters a decade or two ago, but now it's just rote. (That's why Game of Thrones upped the ante and killed the ostensible protagonist.) The shock death hasn't been shocking for years and I'd love to have them subvert it with a twist that he survived, was placed on life support, and is slowly recovering.
(I called Tyler killing someone to prove his heel turn. At the time I said it'd be Tilly to cement his betrayal of Burnham and allow her to work up the emotion to kill her lover. Which could still happen. But it'd be nice to be wrong.)

Oh... and it'd also be nice if the Faceless Emperor is actually revealed and doesn't end up another teased mystery that goes nowhere. Like the Black Badges...
 

Mallus

Legend
But, where are you guys getting the idea that Lorca is a mirror universe Lorca?
It's couple of things, taken together.

The most important is a quick shot of Lorca overriding the coordinates from a panel on the conn just before the spore drive jump that lands them in the Mirror Universe. For whatever reason, Lorca wanted the Discovery there.

The second most is his admiral-with-benefits saying directly to him: "You're a different man".

Then it's bunch of little details; Lorca general ruthlessness, sleeping with a weapon under the pillow, several offhand remarks regarding the spore drive and access to other universes, his weird eye-thing (maybe), coupled with the delayed reflection of Stamets in that one episode that kicked off the speculation about the Mirror Universe.

There's nothing definitive. But Lorca as potentially being from the Mirror Universe was hinted at. Could easily be misdirection, though.
 
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It seemed they didn't show Lorca's display of the presumably changed coordinates in the preview of this episode, so it might indicate that this is a red herring, or at least not immediately relevant.

Notice how he asked what happened to his Mirror versions s ship, and it was also lost - maybe his real aim is to rescue his crew, or at least an alternate universe version of it? But that alternate universe was not Mirror Universe.

As an argument for the Mirror Verse Lorca theory - they suggest that every captain in the Mirror Universe has a security guy loyal to him or her - maybe that was who the deceased security chief was for Mirror Lorca?

However, overall I tend to think that unless Lorca made the Mirror/Prime jump during the destruction of his ship, that he's either from the Prime universe or at least some very similar universe. His relationship to Cornwell suggests they knew each other well, and it seems unlikely that experiences with Mirror Cornwell would be so similar that he could just pick off where they last were. Even if the details of their relationship are officially documented, improvising a long-standing intimidate relationship based on that sounds... difficult.
 

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