Discussing Sword & Sorcery and RPGs

[ART!]

I think the lack of Paladins in S&S is more a failure to imagine faith in a world where there is no cosmic reward for it. The world of Conan wouldn’t have Paladins of Crom, because Crom sucks. But Ancients Paladins dedicated to the Wild and to opposing the corruption of evil sorcerers? Yeah that’s exactly the sort of character I’d want to play.

A S&S Paladin can be a person who walks into the darkness sword in hand because they have the MIGHT to bring people back out of it, or at least stop it spreading, and who else is gonna do it? The Paladin’s faith can be in people and purpose, it needn’t be in gods.

This.

I think most if not all classes can work in S&S, if you look past the names and descriptions and instead look at what the class does.

I feel much the same way about races, in that i see no need for S&S to be all or mostly human PCs.

 

[pemerton]

A S&S Paladin can be a person who walks into the darkness sword in hand because they have the MIGHT to bring people back out of it, or at least stop it spreading, and who else is gonna do it? The Paladin’s faith can be in people and purpose, it needn’t be in gods.

I don't see how what you describe here is any different from Conan on a heroic day. It's not a holy warrior with divine providence on his/her side.

 

[CapnZapp]

- Healing is Hard
Magical healing is rare in S&S. This makes repetitive combat very dangerous.

This is pretty much just a huge aside, but this triggers me.

The notion "combat is scarily dangerous" just doesn't work in any genre where you're meant to fight a lot.

If you fight a lot, combat isn't very dangerous because otherwise your characters would never live to see the end of the campaign.

You CAN make games where combat actually IS dangerous, but then the emphasis needs to lie in other areas: intrigue games, spy games, social games.

RuneQuest is a game who many people actually think is more dangerous than a game like D&D (that definitely is upfront with its hero-guarding mechanisms). But just because you don't have levels or hit points doesn't mean your game is very dangerous. Or.. it is, and your premise is fatally flawed, unless you're into sadistic self-harm.

My point is: stop pretending combat is very dangerous.

Now then, many will go "okay so one combat isn't dangerous but multiple combats without rest might well be". That is, resource management.

But the thing is - that's not very fun. There is a school of thought in D&D-dom which says that the first 4 or 5 fights aren't supposed to be individually life-threatening, but the 6th or 7th such fight might well be, simply because you're now so low on resources, that you capacity to bounce back has been depleted.

But this amounts to repetitive drawn-out play. Having individual combats (or short sequences thereof) are much more exciting, and immediately fulfilling. Which is why that is how most versions of D&D are actually played, regardless of what each version's designers had in mind.

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Anyway, combat is definitely a staple in S&S, and using a game engine where combat is a penalty (such as those games where other things are a focus thus allowing them to treat combat as a true risk) and not a reward (it is very much a reward in D&D) is not my idea of fun.

I will now return you to your scheduled programming.

 

[pemerton]

@CapnZapp I saw that too, and had much the same response as you did. REH's Conan stories feature quite a bit of fighting, and Conan survives it.

I don't think that has to be a reason to use D&D hp as a system; but I think a S&S game needs to make combat a pretty viable form of dealing with the PCs' problems!

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I don't see how what you describe here is any different from Conan on a heroic day. It's not a holy warrior with divine providence on his/her side.

when playing a paladin, I don't give a half a damn about divine providence. That's what clerics are for. I'm playing a knight with a creed, whose power comes from faith in that creed.

If you don't see the difference between that character and Conan, especially if it's because you're acting like Conan's "heroic days" can be compared to a whole character, then i doubt we have much we can discuss on the topic.

 

[Tonguez]

I think the lack of Paladins in S&S is more a failure to imagine faith in a world where there is no cosmic reward for it. The world of Conan wouldn’t have Paladins of Crom, because Crom sucks. But Ancients Paladins dedicated to the Wild and to opposing the corruption of evil sorcerers? Yeah that’s exactly the sort of character I’d want to play.

A S&S Paladin can be a person who walks into the darkness sword in hand because they have the MIGHT to bring people back out of it, or at least stop it spreading, and who else is gonna do it? The Paladin’s faith can be in people and purpose, it needn’t be in gods.

In Black Collosus Yasmela seeks advice from the Oracle of Mitra and is told to go to the street and entrust the defence of the Kingdom to the first man she meets - that man is of course Conan. I’d be happy to stretch that to mean Conan was chosen by Mitra as his favoured Champion

Even more so in comics, a couple of times when Mitra has given Conan a direct blessing while Conan is fighting Demons.

 

[Yora]

My point is: stop pretending combat is very dangerous.

I think what people really mean by it is "there should be a theoretical possibility that not everyone always survives if the group picks stupidly dangerous fights".
Victory over everythig not being a given is not actually a standard for all games.

 

[pemerton]

In Black Collosus Yasmela seeks advice from the Oraclke of Mitra and is told to go to the street and entrust the defence of the Kingdom to the first man she meets - that man is of course Conan. I’d be happy to stretch that to mean Conan was chosen by Mitra as his favoured Champion

Even more so in comics, a couple of times when Mitra has given Conan a direct blessing while Conan is fighting Demons.

These would fall under the "hints" I mentioned upthread. There is also this sort of thing in The Phoenix on the Sword and The Hour of the Dragon.

But lean too far into it and your S&S is suddenly no different from your LotR-ish "Frodo was meant to have the ring" except that the warriors have mightier thews!

 

[doctorbadwolf]

In Black Collosus Yasmela seeks advice from the Oracle of Mitra and is told to go to the street and entrust the defence of the Kingdom to the first man she meets - that man is of course Conan. I’d be happy to stretch that to mean Conan was chosen by Mitra as his favoured Champion

Even more so in comics, a couple of times when Mitra has given Conan a direct blessing while Conan is fighting Demons.

Sure, and if you take that idea and make it part of the character's background, and make their main driving motivation be to based on a creed, and you've got an S&S paladin. But an S&S paladin should be, in flavor and roleplay, more like Roland Deschain than like Gawain of The Round Table. Divine Smite is unnaturally accurate hits, maybe just replace Lay on Hands with something because honestly why are Paladins healing so much anyway?

Heck, even turning creatures works, you just roleplay it as having iron and obscure plants and knowing the words in ancient languages that certain creatures can't stand to hear, and being the sort of character whose eyes flash with command as their voice cracks like thunder.

 

[CapnZapp]

I don't think that has to be a reason to use D&D hp as a system; but I think a S&S game needs to make combat a pretty viable form of dealing with the PCs' problems!

To be sure, just because I have said upthread D&D5 is a surprisingly good basis for S&S (with the implication that many other iterations aren't, simply because they're too fiddly and detail-oriented) doesn't mean I am also saying [insert other game here] is bad at S&S.

I would like to go to the lengths of suggesting the argument D&D5 is possibly better at S&S than actual D&D has at least some merit. (What makes D&D5 too unnuanced and un-crunchy for many players is exactly what makes it a great foundation for S&S)

Cheers