Discussing Sword & Sorcery and RPGs

[Numidius]

Pacts & Blades. Pbta derivative, I guess. I remember it has an interesting way of advancement, either in pacts or blades.
I've heard some clunky mechanic to determine damage, though

 

[Numidius]

Absolutely.

I would love a game where your swing details make important mechanical sense.

Since this likely slows down combat you can afford to have fewer and smaller combats, to really put the emphasis on how close to death you really are. Maybe not transforming the experience from combat as sport to combat as war, but asking players to REALLY be discerning with the fights they pick.

However I haven't found any such games.

Mmhhh.... Important mechanical sense? I don't know...

The times in which descriptions of slashes/gunfight/whatever made really the difference between winning or losing, were when going freeform adjudication by the gm (me).

Runner up, Dungeon World, or similar game, because you need to know what actually happens in the fight to see if it triggers the rolls to hit and for damage.

In any iteration of d&d I tried (not many) the focus in combat was to count every little bonus/malus to meet the target number, which is fun btw, only not exactly my ideal of flashy fights with something at stake beyond mere victory.

In my current b/x d&d game I added some options to make actual descriptions more important:
Fluid initiative
Just exchanging damage with opponent if one doesn't bother to defend herself (ala Into the Odd rpg)
Standard attack rolls
Maneuvers in combat with extra die ( ala DCC rpg)
Stances
Freeform adjudication of weapons usage to have a particular advantage, or complication.

Where is this going? Since we have a Gm who can adjudicate, why not push her role to an extreme (freeform), while also fostering description by the Players...?
That is going to be fast and detailed as needed, and if/when disagreement arise, well, roll something.

 

[Numidius]

My approach to this has always been a little old fashioned I think. I just read a conan story and get an adventure idea from it. To me, rather than coming up with a list of things that need to be present, I just immerse myself in that kind of material, and draw on it for adventure and situation ideas.

So much this. Don't overthink it. I would look at an Elric's graphic novel to get some inspiration, for example, as I posted in the other thread.

 

[Yora]

So, the question everyone should have, but nobody seems to ask.
How do you make a S&S campaign spicy? S&S is not modest and composed. A big draw of the whole aesthetic is that it's naughty and getting a kick out of it. Chainmail bikinis and harlot tables are certainly not the way to go. But if not that, what is?

 

[pemerton]

How do you make a S&S campaign spicy?

Are you talking expressly about sex here?

 

[Yora]

Not only, though it's certainly a major part. Sword & Sorcery tends to have a strong transgressive element, which contributes to its reputation of being trashy fantasy.
Saying "the PCs can be villains" is certainly true, but can that be more than regular juvenile murderhobos? What about PCs who aren't really bad? How can we make them break the rules and stick it to the man, and rebel against the restrictive norms of society?

 

[pemerton]

Not only, though it's certainly a major part. Sword & Sorcery tends to have a strong transgressive element, which contributes to its reputation of being trashy fantasy.
Saying "the PCs can be villains" is certainly true, but can that be more than regular juvenile murderhobos? What about PCs who aren't really bad? How can we make them break the rules and stick it to the man, and rebel against the restrictive norms of society?

Who is the we who is making them break the rules?

If you frame scenes in which transgression is an option; and you narrate consequences in a way that doesn't just hose the players for choosing transgression; then it will happen, or not, as the players think is appropriate for circumstances and their PCs.

 

[Aldarc]

Not only, though it's certainly a major part. Sword & Sorcery tends to have a strong transgressive element, which contributes to its reputation of being trashy fantasy.
Saying "the PCs can be villains" is certainly true, but can that be more than regular juvenile murderhobos? What about PCs who aren't really bad? How can we make them break the rules and stick it to the man, and rebel against the restrictive norms of society?

I don't think that its reputation is so much "transgressive“ as it is "juvenille," especially of the male power fantasy variety. Its reputation is more akin to Harlequin Romance Novels or, rather, "Harlequin Action Novels," but for boys.

I don't think it's a coincidence, FWIW, that the resurgent interest in S&S and hyper-masculine action heroes in the late '70s-'80s followed 2nd Wave Feminism.

 

[CapnZapp]

Sigh. Discussing S&S as if it's an intellectual feat to find flaws in it.

I like my S&S trashy and visceral and indefensible. I find it infinitely more rewarding and interesting to highlight what is good and attractive about the genre than poking holes in it. Are we fans of S&S or are we not?

Let's instead hold up the beefcake and cheesecake as something worthy, as something useful in order to create the atmosphere and imagery that is S&S!

If you don't care for inequality, and if you need equal opportunities for every concept of character - then just play in another genre. To me S&S is very much driven by testosterone, and trying to get rid of that is just throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Infinitely more constructive than easy sniping would be for y'all to tell us what aspects of S&S is it that you really do like!

Because if your list ends up containing lots of things S&S share with other fantasy genres, and perhaps very few of the things that are decidedly Swordy or Sorcerous, then I've got news for you: you're not really a fan of S&S, and you're mostly trying to make a round peg fit a square hole.

To me S&S most of all offers the promise of unpuritan role-playing. Only a puritan would confuse that for juvenile.

You play S&S when you need to cleanse your palate after too much of the Americanized fantasy that is D&D. A genre that is decidedly restricted and self-censored. If you can describe your S&S scenario on an American "family friendly" forum without getting censored or booted something is wrong!

S&S needs to be the European arthouse movie you watch after watching too many Marvel superhero movies. Just look at the new(ish) Conan and John Carter movies to see what a dumpster fire of an idea it is to "clean up" S&S.

Have a nice day, everybody

 

[pemerton]

I like my S&S trashy and visceral and indefensible

<snip>

Infinitely more constructive than easy sniping would be for y'all to tell us what aspects of S&S is it that you really do like!

Because if your list ends up containing lots of things S&S share with other fantasy genres, and perhaps very few of the things that are decidedly Swordy or Sorcerous, then I've got news for you: you're not really a fan of S&S, and you're mostly trying to make a round peg fit a square hole.

To me S&S most of all offers the promise of unpuritan role-playing. Only a puritan would confuse that for juvenile.

<snip>

S&S needs to be the European arthouse movie you watch after watching too many Marvel superhero movies.

I thought I was following your rant until I got to that last bit I've quoted. I don't know what arthouse movies you're watching, but if I had to point to something trashy and indefensible I'd be pointing to a MCU film rather than an Almodovar film!

My conception of S&S is dominated by REH's Conan and Kull stories. It's about violently capable individuals making their way in a world with little or no inherent value. It has a modernist or even existential dimension: value is imposed on a situation by the person who takes control of it; and obligations are personal and passionate, not impersonal or duty-imposed traditions.

To that extent there's a resemblance to some European films, but not because of trashiness or indefensibility!