Discussion for a Kingdom of ashes OOC II

[AIM-54]

Be forewarned venting, malice and vitriol ahead....

Just a few thoughts on everything that is wrong:

1) d20 is a broken, broken system. In recent debates with my friends back home I've tried to defend its merits, but after yesterday and looking ahead to further levelling it just looks more and more moronic. The idea of adding anything over +10 and maybe, maybe +12 to a d20 roll is the height of STUPIDITY. Honestly, WHAT THE IS THE POINT? The power curve is stupidly broken. There's no reason that a DM has to come up with bigger and nastier monsters just to try and pretend that there's still danger in the game. At least in this one, that aspect is gone. There's no reason to fear. Several characters have tremendous amounts of hit points etc and if you hit 0 you're not dead anyway, you can just stabilize and come back. Whoop de ing do.

2)Moral stupidity is annoying. Play a character not a ing alignment. I'm all for moral dilemma's, but don't be a moron about them. When half the characters get marginalized 3/4 of the time because a couple of characters have a moral qualm if an innocent flea gets a scratch, it just gets dumb. If I want to listen to/be involved with moral treatises, there are better fora for it. I don't care if you want to play the exalted of the exalted, these characters represent humans or human types, and are therefore fallible. Letting alignment dictate your actions, other than as a general guideline is annoying, unnecessary, stupid and the waste of everyone else's time who's trying to have fun. When 6 of 7 characters are fighter classes, doing everything to avoid violence IS AMONG THE STUPIDEST THINGS OF ALL TIME. For christ's sake we chose to play these characters BECAUSE WE LIKE TO FIGHT AND YES KILL STUFF!!!!

3) Quit whining at the DM every time things don't go your way or you don't like a rule interpretation or you're just having a bad day. It's annoying, it wastes everyone elses time and it makes THE GAME less fun.

4) This group, for a bunch of supposedly exalted characters has yet to, as far as I can remember, do anything I would remotely call heroic. We are very good at running away in a confused mass, though. This is sure why I signed up to play this game.

5) d20 is a broken, broken system.

I have, at least, discovered why I've never played through a campaign in this system though. Once you hit about 10th level it just starts to suck. Maybe over the coming hiatus I'll be able to find something redeeming in this thing. Maybe not. I like my character, the story is intriguing, but I'll be damned if the party's done a damned thing of interest since we left the monastery. All this sudden flurry of activity to try and rescue this thing strikes me as ridiculously funny. If it takes half the game and characters can become as powerful as they have through the vast amount of incompetence, indecision and disunity as this group has, one wonders why we'd bother now.

I'm gonna quit now before I alienate anyone any further, but it sure as hell felt good to say all that. Now I'm going to go kill electrons in cold blood in the hope that it will help me vent the rest of this burning, burning rage.

 

[Xath]

It seems that most of the problems you speak of here have to do with me, so I will do my best to answer them.

Just a few thoughts on everything that is wrong:

Firstly, just because you are frusterated with aspects of the game doesn't mean they're wrong. If you have problems with something that is going on in or out of game, why don't you say something when we're together? Maybe the reason the "wrong" things keep happening is because no one knows how much they frusterate you.

1) d20 is a broken, broken system. In recent debates with my friends back home I've tried to defend its merits, but after yesterday and looking ahead to further levelling it just looks more and more moronic. The idea of adding anything over +10 and maybe, maybe +12 to a d20 roll is the height of STUPIDITY. Honestly, WHAT THE IS THE POINT? The power curve is stupidly broken. There's no reason that a DM has to come up with bigger and nastier monsters just to try and pretend that there's still danger in the game. At least in this one, that aspect is gone. There's no reason to fear. Several characters have tremendous amounts of hit points etc and if you hit 0 you're not dead anyway, you can just stabilize and come back. Whoop de ing do.

No system is perfect. If you want a system that is completely realistic, than you shouldn't be playing a fantasy game. It kind of defeats the purpose. As far as adding numbers to skill checks, for sake of arguement let's say a 3rd level spell gives you a +30 bonus to, oh, i don't know, a bluff check. Magic is powerful. But the ability to be extremely good at your area of focus is consistant in any game I've ever seen. Xath happens to be very persuasive. Kaereth happens to be incredibly good at both offensive and defensive fighting styles. Who wants to be in a fantasy situation where they can't excel at anything? Maybe this is what makes a roleplaying system good for you. I happen to like the one I'm in.

2)Moral stupidity is annoying. Play a character not a ing alignment. I'm all for moral dilemma's, but don't be a moron about them. When half the characters get marginalized 3/4 of the time because a couple of characters have a moral qualm if an innocent flea gets a scratch, it just gets dumb. If I want to listen to/be involved with moral treatises, there are better fora for it. I don't care if you want to play the exalted of the exalted, these characters represent humans or human types, and are therefore fallible. Letting alignment dictate your actions, other than as a general guideline is annoying, unnecessary, stupid and the waste of everyone else's time who's trying to have fun. When 6 of 7 characters are fighter classes, doing everything to avoid violence IS AMONG THE STUPIDEST THINGS OF ALL TIME. For christ's sake we chose to play these characters BECAUSE WE LIKE TO FIGHT AND YES KILL STUFF!!!!

I, though possibly inadvertantly, find this statement to be extremely insulting, though i respect it as being your opinion. I, although, object to your extreme generalization. Last night alot of focus was put on the fact that Xath wouldn't be exalted if she killed Edriss while he was helpless. Do not mistake that for the reasoning behind anything I did last night. The Only exalted ability that Xath has is 1 spell that helps all of the fighters become better at fighting. It doesn't really help her, it helps you. I do for Xath what I do for any character I portray, whether it be onstage or in a roleplaying game. Because Xath is continually changing, I do more. I spend approximately 3 hours a week writing character history for Xath so that there is a reason behind every choice she makes. Please do Not mistake this for playing towards alignment, because you know what? If Xath's alignment changes, it doesn't matter. It's already changed once. You know why she had a moral qualm with killing Edriss? Because she'd only seen the guy twice. Both times he was agressive were because we had started it. If it had been someone like Nightgrove, she wouldn't have had any qualms. If it had been the Bluestar, or an agent of the Bluestar, no problem. However, all evidence that I have seen shows that most likely the King, and therefore Edriss, are allied with the evils of the west, not the Bluestar. Being of evil doesn't warrent a death sentence. Nor should being good necessarily allow you to live. Xath is fallible, she hesitated in killing Edriss, because she abhors senseless violence. Had Edriss been actively trying to kill one of you, she would have stepped right in. But every time, he'd fought us, it was our fault. Arfin may have hated him, but he had saved Arfin's life. No one has yet to tell me of any horrific deed they knew Edriss to perpetrate without instigation. Maybe you know of something. I don't. You say that characters should be flawed, but moral dilemmas are stupid and annoying. It seems to be a contradictory statement.

3) Quit whining at the DM every time things don't go your way or you don't like a rule interpretation or you're just having a bad day. It's annoying, it wastes everyone elses time and it makes THE GAME less fun.

I'll respond to a specific example of this. I don't know if this was the instance you were refering to. I was kind of upset when the plan we had spent so much time working on was pulled apart by a piece of information that our characters would of known but we did not. We then, were not allowed to replan. But you know what? After the game, we sat down and talked about the reasons why we thought what we did. And we worked it out in a mature fashion. This group is by far the least whiny I have ever had the pleasure of playing with. Yesterday, everyone was a little strained. I have confidence that we are all sophisticated enough to work through our issues.

4) This group, for a bunch of supposedly exalted characters has yet to, as far as I can remember, do anything I would remotely call heroic. We are very good at running away in a confused mass, though. This is sure why I signed up to play this game.

Firstly, your sarcasm does nothing to prove your point, it just makes you sound like a jerk, and makes it difficult for me not to become offensive in my responses. If you have an issue with the way the characters work, say something. You often remark how you never say anything in game, maybe you should. I understand that you choose to play Kaereth's low intelligence in a way that he doesn't speak in a sophisticated way. But his wisdom could be a guiding force amongst us. Don't knock it until you try it.

5) d20 is a broken, broken system.

You've said that already. This does nothing to further your point, but instead makes me less inclined to believe you.

I have, at least, discovered why I've never played through a campaign in this system though. Once you hit about 10th level it just starts to suck. Maybe over the coming hiatus I'll be able to find something redeeming in this thing. Maybe not. I like my character, the story is intriguing, but I'll be damned if the party's done a damned thing of interest since we left the monastery. All this sudden flurry of activity to try and rescue this thing strikes me as ridiculously funny. If it takes half the game and characters can become as powerful as they have through the vast amount of incompetence, indecision and disunity as this group has, one wonders why we'd bother now.

I joined this campaign right after the incedent in the monestary, and I don't really know what happened before that. Maybe that's your point. But I know that the one thing we've been searching for for a long time is a unifying purpose. And we've finally found one. You made the point yourself that no one is perfect. Everyone is fallible. Our characters are fallable and there's no reason why we should emerge from any situation without a few scrapes and bruises. One thing's for sure, this negativity does nothing to help.

I'm gonna quit now before I alienate anyone any further, but it sure as hell felt good to say all that. Now I'm going to go kill electrons in cold blood in the hope that it will help me vent the rest of this burning, burning rage.

 

[The_Universe]

I suggest that we all take this down a notch. Perhaps 2. Perhaps 10.

As the DM, I can say with some assurance, as the arbiter of the system, that the system is not broken. +35 to a check does not break the system--in fact, this is one of the areas that I think the system has shined in. Once you get to medium/high level, you should be able to basically shape the reality of the peasantry. Of course they'll believe you! Even the least powerful among you could kick their @$$'s with one (or two) hands behind your backs. I like the D20 system, as it is easily the friendliest system to the DM in existence. Handy.

As for the lack of character deaths--that is entirely my doing. I give you hero points (not a real rule) and let you stabilize on a Fort. Save DC 15 (normally, a 10% chance every round). I put the advantage in the character's hands, because I want it to be a BIG DEAL when one of you bites it.

Now that I have said my piece in defending my beloved D20 system, I want to encourage you all to take a deep breath, take a step back, and think about what you're arguing about. There can be no winners, only bruised friendships coming out of this one. Agree to disagree if it's necessary, but a point-by-point rebuttal helps no one.

The characterization of the campaign as a series of failures is not a fair one. The characterization of the characters as unheroic is similarly unfair. I have the records. I have the notes. Saving dwarves being slowly tortured certainly counts. Guiding the refugees out of Oceanus certainly counts. Furthermore, insulting the game insults the work that I put into it. And believe me, I put a lot of work into it.

Anyway, we're all friends (or at least, I hope we are). Losing friends/players over this is even more asinine than losing friends/players over who's house we play at. If there's no way to salvage it, then let's quit and move on. Does it really need to be "salvaged?" No.

Bah. Angry DM. Sorry. The Universe is shutting up. Just remember (please) who spends the week preparing for the game, and who it hurts to insult that preparation.

Now, let's knife some hobos (in real life), make some plans (in game), and get on with life (in both).

 

[AIM-54]

It seems that most of the problems you speak of here have to do with me, so I will do my best to answer them.

Actually that's not true at all, but if that's what you choose to believe, so be it.

Firstly, just because you are frusterated with aspects of the game doesn't mean they're wrong. If you have problems with something that is going on in or out of game, why don't you say something when we're together? Maybe the reason the "wrong" things keep happening is because no one knows how much they frusterate you.

Yep, last time I checked when I get frustrated, it generally means everything is peachy keen.

No system is perfect. If you want a system that is completely realistic, than you shouldn't be playing a fantasy game. It kind of defeats the purpose. As far as adding numbers to skill checks, for sake of arguement let's say a 3rd level spell gives you a +30 bonus to, oh, i don't know, a bluff check. Magic is powerful. But the ability to be extremely good at your area of focus is consistant in any game I've ever seen. Xath happens to be very persuasive. Kaereth happens to be incredibly good at both offensive and defensive fighting styles. Who wants to be in a fantasy situation where they can't excel at anything? Maybe this is what makes a roleplaying system good for you. I happen to like the one I'm in.

I never claimed there was a perfect system. I'm expressing an opinion. I'm expressing flaws in the current system. Game mechanics can often be improved, hence house rules. I just think there's better ways then giving people bonuses for everything under the sun. There's also ways to excel without requiring stupid high numbers for everything. This systems clearly designed for inordinately powerful, "heroic" gaming. I'm learning that I prefer a different style with a slightly lesser power curve. That's neither here nor there. Like I said, I'm venting. I tried to make that pretty clear. But when I see that next level I'm going to be able to attack 3 times a round at a +18 bonus, I just wonder what I'm playing for? Like I mentioned, the danger factor just goes away. There's less tension and I'm not as entertained, nor as involved in the story. It clearly matches up with how you like to game and that's fine. It seems to match up with how the rest of the group likes to game. That's also fine. I like the group and have enjoyed playing with you guys mostly, so I'm willing to suck it up and deal with a system that to me, in a word, sucks. Maybe that's no longer enough and I need to go out and find a group that better fits me. I don't know.

I, though possibly inadvertantly, find this statement to be extremely insulting, though i respect it as being your opinion. I, although, object to your extreme generalization. Last night alot of focus was put on the fact that Xath wouldn't be exalted if she killed Edriss while he was helpless. Do not mistake that for the reasoning behind anything I did last night. The Only exalted ability that Xath has is 1 spell that helps all of the fighters become better at fighting. It doesn't really help her, it helps you. I do for Xath what I do for any character I portray, whether it be onstage or in a roleplaying game. Because Xath is continually changing, I do more. I spend approximately 3 hours a week writing character history for Xath so that there is a reason behind every choice she makes. Please do Not mistake this for playing towards alignment, because you know what? If Xath's alignment changes, it doesn't matter. It's already changed once. You know why she had a moral qualm with killing Edriss? Because she'd only seen the guy twice. Both times he was agressive were because we had started it. If it had been someone like Nightgrove, she wouldn't have had any qualms. If it had been the Bluestar, or an agent of the Bluestar, no problem. However, all evidence that I have seen shows that most likely the King, and therefore Edriss, are allied with the evils of the west, not the Bluestar. Being of evil doesn't warrent a death sentence. Nor should being good necessarily allow you to live. Xath is fallible, she hesitated in killing Edriss, because she abhors senseless violence. Had Edriss been actively trying to kill one of you, she would have stepped right in. But every time, he'd fought us, it was our fault. Arfin may have hated him, but he had saved Arfin's life. No one has yet to tell me of any horrific deed they knew Edriss to perpetrate without instigation. Maybe you know of something. I don't. You say that characters should be flawed, but moral dilemmas are stupid and annoying. It seems to be a contradictory statement.

This statement was not just directed at you, but clearly that's how you've taken it. Now I know more than I ever cared to about the inner thought processes of a fictional character. I'd also like to say that I never said moral dilemmas are annoying. In fact, I said I'm all for them. I just said don't be a moron about them. Like making moral dilemma's where they aren't necessary and slow down game play. Having a discussion about morality and alignment for 45 minutes before taking any action is annoying. At least in my opinion. Maybe some people like that, but there's a limit to my tolerance for it. That's been crossed almost every session we've played. Sometimes you have to drop the characters a bit to further game play, because this is, after all, not a play, but a game. My point is, we don't need to have intense discussions on whether or not Xath would find a certain character evil before we can get to the important part, namely, kicking evil's ass.

I'll respond to a specific example of this. I don't know if this was the instance you were refering to. I was kind of upset when the plan we had spent so much time working on was pulled apart by a piece of information that our characters would of known but we did not. We then, were not allowed to replan. But you know what? After the game, we sat down and talked about the reasons why we thought what we did. And we worked it out in a mature fashion. This group is by far the least whiny I have ever had the pleasure of playing with. Yesterday, everyone was a little strained. I have confidence that we are all sophisticated enough to work through our issues.

That particular issue did not even cross my mind. My point still stands. We don't need to try and "beat" Kennon every single time he does something that confounds our plans, takes advantage of forgotten information, etc. That's part of the fun, is it not?

Firstly, your sarcasm does nothing to prove your point, it just makes you sound like a jerk, and makes it difficult for me not to become offensive in my responses. If you have an issue with the way the characters work, say something. You often remark how you never say anything in game, maybe you should. I understand that you choose to play Kaereth's low intelligence in a way that he doesn't speak in a sophisticated way. But his wisdom could be a guiding force amongst us. Don't knock it until you try it.

First, this is a message board. Second, this is a message board for a rather silly game. Whether you think I make a point or not is irrelevant. Like I said, I'm venting. I put that at that top, so there'd be no mistake. My favorite part was when I designed a sophisticated, tactically sound plan for a fighting retreat, but then everyone got worried about the peasants so that something I invested a lot of time and energy and, indeed, derived a lot of pleasure in designing (because I like the military stuff and I understand that not everyone does, but this seemed like a good opportunity to play with that, in-game without derailing anything). Maybe I'm just frustrated that I can't do that so much with Kaereth because of his intellectual limitations and that stuff is a lot of the reason why I play these games. But I guess as long as the NPC peasants got out all right and their town was captured without the semblance of resistance...
Your high and mightiness is also taking away from your points. Just so long as we're taking shots at each other.

You've said that already. This does nothing to further your point, but instead makes me less inclined to believe you.

See above. Also note at the top, it said venting. And seeing as how it's an opinion and you've already noted your devotion to the system, clearly I'm not trying sway you. Actually, I've surrendered to the notion of swaying anyone in this group that there might actually exist other systems that could, at times, be as much fun or even preferable to d20. But I'm the heathen here. And that's fine. But allow me my God-given right to vent frustration from time to time, even to the point of repeating myself. I may be doing it as much to get it off my chest than to make a point with the inconvertible.

I joined this campaign right after the incedent in the monestary, and I don't really know what happened before that. Maybe that's your point. But I know that the one thing we've been searching for for a long time is a unifying purpose. And we've finally found one. You made the point yourself that no one is perfect. Everyone is fallible. Our characters are fallable and there's no reason why we should emerge from any situation without a few scrapes and bruises. One thing's for sure, this negativity does nothing to help.

Please, do tell what this purpose is. The liege blades? Defeating evil? Wondering if it's okay to kill people that are attacking us if, after all, they're just doing their jobs? It seems to be that we more have a bunch of goals which we can then muddle through, somehow gaining experience and otherwise making fools of ourselves after which, we will likely, through the DM's grace, acquiring the blades and defeating evil through unbridled incompetence. Heck, maybe it's all my fault. Clearly, there is more I could have done. Like I said, we'll see how I'm feeling after this hiatus. I may just be done with this whole game for awhile.
Also, please stop thinking this has everything to do with you. You are not the catalyst for any of this, beyond the 20th century morality you delight in taking back to a medieval fantasy game. It's a whole lot of stuff and probably some stuff which really has nothing to do with any of you, as unfair as that is. Such is life.
On the contrary, this negativity has been very beneficial to me. See, I vented. I feel better. Everyone knows where I stand. They can like it or hate it, I don't care, but I'm all set for now.

 

[AIM-54]

I suggest that we all take this down a notch. Perhaps 2. Perhaps 10.

That's no fun.

As the DM, I can say with some assurance, as the arbiter of the system, that the system is not broken. +35 to a check does not break the system--in fact, this is one of the areas that I think the system has shined in. Once you get to medium/high level, you should be able to basically shape the reality of the peasantry. Of course they'll believe you! Even the least powerful among you could kick their @$$'s with one (or two) hands behind your backs. I like the D20 system, as it is easily the friendliest system to the DM in existence. Handy.

As an experienced gamer, I can tell you that it is broken. But that is neither here nor there. You will never convince me and I will never convince you. It's a matter of what you like in a game and I've found other systems that are better suited for what I like in a game. We all know where we stand on this and, thus far, I've dealt with it. But right now I'm feeling a little d20 fatigue. And I personally don't believe we should be able to "shape the reality" of the peasantry. Virtual automatic success just isn't that much fun in my book. Especially when I see next level or two I'm going to be able to do 3 attacks at my maximum attack bonus and crap. But I guess learning what I like and dislike is a valuable lesson of this game.

As for the lack of character deaths--that is entirely my doing. I give you hero points (not a real rule) and let you stabilize on a Fort. Save DC 15 (normally, a 10% chance every round). I put the advantage in the character's hands, because I want it to be a BIG DEAL when one of you bites it.

I understand this, but if there's no danger and I "die" just about every session, if not more, and get healed up almost instantly with little to no consequences, it just dulls the edge. When I GM I don't like to kill characters either and, indeed, am probably nicer than my comments here might suggest, but again, when I GM it's about making it fun for the players and there are certain groups that will accept and enjoy a more lethal game. Clearly this is not one.

Now that I have said my piece in defending my beloved D20 system, I want to encourage you all to take a deep breath, take a step back, and think about what you're arguing about. There can be no winners, only bruised friendships coming out of this one. Agree to disagree if it's necessary, but a point-by-point rebuttal helps no one.

Who's arguing? I've been pretty clear that this is all venting.

The characterization of the campaign as a series of failures is not a fair one. The characterization of the characters as unheroic is similarly unfair. I have the records. I have the notes. Saving dwarves being slowly tortured certainly counts. Guiding the refugees out of Oceanus certainly counts. Furthermore, insulting the game insults the work that I put into it. And believe me, I put a lot of work into it.

Yes, some of us actually attend our classes.

I never intended to insult the game or the work you put into it. You are an excellent DM and have done an admirable job with an often moronic group of characters, none of whom would survive in the real world. But that's what we have fantasy for after all, anyway. The point is, I'm beginning to understand where my fatigue with this game after a certain point comes from. And that's no one elses issue. Maybe some of this is simply attributable to the bitch of a semester I've had and that's now getting worse. Which is also not your fault, but I usually associate friends with people I can vent to and say whatever I want with the understanding that I am just venting. But perhaps "friend" is too strong a word at this point in time. Whatever. Like I said, this hiatus will probably be good for me and maybe I can find redeemable qualities in this silly game again.

 

[Archon]

perspective

what's goin' on? you guys are being silly. don't fight here. i'd rather you not fight at all, but hey, beggars can't be choosers. i care about you guys too much to see this go down. if we can't all hug and be friends, then we need to put EVERYTHING on the table and say "why" we can't hug and be friends. and i know it's a lot easier to be angry and say things on the "interweb" that we don't really mean. so lets stop, and think about this.
it's a game, but it's also a story. a story all of us have worked hard on and shared in.
so let's be cool. everybody, be cool. and let's enjoy the time we get to spend together. and hey, if a cool story comes out of it too, bonus.
high fives and loving head-butts all around.
-mik aka "puddin' head"

 

[The_Universe]

Mik's post is a good idea. Also, Kat's post is a good idea.

*Head butt o' love*

 

[The_Universe]

6) Ask the duke and any other leader types to send word/proclomation that Link forgave the high alder –they may be allies who will fight with us- since now they can make the correct choice and be on the winning side!

The Universe hadn't thought of that, in exactly those terms. Extra special good idea. My recommendation? In addition to the Phoenix banner, you maybe need a Woodsahdow banner. Rebellions often depend on the margianalized, and High Alder are nothing if not that. There are other margianilized parts of the populace as well, but I'll make you all think of those.

 

[Xath]

My Apology

I'm sorry I was such a butt-munch in my response. I hadn't had the greatest day, and reading that post really got me riled up. I respect your right to vent. I also realize that one of the reasons I was so upset is because I despise talking about matters like feelings over text. Its too easy to misinterpret, which I think I did on several points.

You guys are the best group of people I've ever roleplayed with. And I won't say anymore because when I write it, it looks sappy. And I try not to be sappy whenever possible.

Anyway...I'm sorry.

-Gertie the electrocuted

Hey, ENworld apparently does not believe in daylight savings time.

 

[The_Universe]

OOOh! OOOH! be sappy! I want to see it!