Discussion: Storm Pillar and Hindering Terrain

[KarinsDad]

Proposal A:

Since that's the rules. Really, no need for a proposal. IMO.

 

[ryryguy]

Which zone would that be? We are not talking about a zone.

Oh, I have not actually looked at the text for Storm Pillar... some of the other effects under discussion have been zones. Substitute "power effect" for zone if you like.

And even if we were, there are no rules that a zone does not create hindering terrain, obscured terrain, or other types of terrain (underwater even if the square is filled with water).

The Obscured Terrain section of the DMG even specifies:

Examples: Fog, mist, zones of magical darkness.

It doesn't matter where the effect comes from (spell, prayer, zone, aura, whatever), if it follows the rules for that terrain type, then the terrain within the area of that effect becomes that terrain type.

Well, that's the fundamental point of disagreement. Can you provide a rules quote for the assertion that power effects should be treated as terrain? Again, I don't think it's at all unreasonable to want to treat it that way, but it's just not as clear cut as you're presenting it.

(Regarding the quote about "zones of magical darkness", in context I don't think it's clear that refers to a zone as a power effect, as opposed to just a synonym for "area".)

I don't want to belabor this... although I do wonder, what do you think about the example of Prismatic Wall? Would you say that should be treated as difficult terrain? (And if so, why do some powers explicitly say that they create difficult terrain or change terrain to be difficult terrain, wouldn't that be redundant?)

*edit*
You added:

Not true. DMG page 44. Cloud of Daggers is listed in the examples.

Please go read the relevent sections of the DMG before claiming one way or the other. That way, you can post rules support behind your opinion.

Sorry, I have not had access to DMG today (while at work), I will look at it tonight. What you're saying about Cloud of Daggers sounds like pretty strong support for your position.

 

[TwoHeadsBarking]

Putting forward two proposals to start getting this resolved...

Proposal A: Storm Pillar triggers off forced movement, however as per PHB pg 286, for each square the enemy would enter they would get a chance to "Catch" themselves. (Info on Catching Yourself on PHB pg 284, it's basically a saving throw)


Proposal B: Storm Pillar triggers off forced movement, a creature may be damaged in this way once per turn. (On the monsters turn it moves willingly through the Storm Pillar area, and takes damage. On the PC's turn, it is slid in and out of the Storm Pillar area three times, it takes damage only once.)

I like A. Storm Pillar needs something to prevent people from being yo-yoed through it, and allowing saves seems as good a way as any.

*Realizes that he may be coming across as a huge hypocrite.*

What? I never said how I think things ought to work. Just how I think they do work. Also, while I may not agree with A, I agree with B even less.

 

[ryryguy]

Ok... so, I really don't want to drag out this rules argument. I'd also be fine with option A, it seems playable and fun. But, I did review the rulebooks as suggested, so I might as well post what I found.

After review, I still think it's ambiguous at best. There is no unambiguous, explicit statement (that I can find anyway) stating that squares with a damaging effect created by a power should be treated as hindering terrain. Pretty much all of the discussion of terrain in the DMG is geared towards how a DM should use it in constructing an encounter. Indeed, it's rather parallel to the discussion of monster roles: categorizations to help in encounter design rather than something to hang other rules off of.

You could say that this is just a function of the fact that it appears in the "Encounter Settings" section. However, if powers were definitely meant to create terrain effects as a matter of course, I'd expect to see at least a little discussion of how that might come into play in encounter design, i.e., how to use a monster that has a power that creates hindering terrain.

The majority of examples that appear are explicitly, unambiguously "things in the world" placed by the DM: "the low rock wall, or the crumbled statues in the dungeon room... a wide chasm... lava... etc." I found only two which seem like they could refer to power effect: "zones of magical darkness" (pg 62) and "a cloud of daggers" (pg 44). The first still seems quite ambiguous to me. The second is stronger, but still not completely clear cut. "the effect of Cloud of Daggers" would be clear cut. "a cloud of daggers" is not. (I will grant that it's tough to say what "a cloud of daggers" might refer to other than the power. This is definitely the strongest example; it seems very likely that the author did have Cloud of Daggers in mind.)

I did find one other reference to powers and terrain effects, in the PH, under How to Read a Power, "Zones":

"For example, some zones create terrain effects, such as difficult terrain or scorching fire that harms anyone who enters it."

This is still kind of frustrating. Why not "difficult terrain or hindering terrain such as scorching fire"? And why only zones? There's no such language under "Conjurations". So would this not apply to a conjuration such as Storm Pillar? That seems odd.

All in all, I suspect that this is all an artifact of the order in which the rules were finalized and the books were written and edited. Difficult terrain was established early on. It's described in the PH, and has plenty of powers that explicitly create it and interact with it (like elven wild step). The other types of terrain were elaborated on later as Wyatt was working on encounter design. Finally, the rule about forced movement into hindering terrain was added late in the game, possibly as a "patch" when there were too many instant deaths during playtests resulting from people getting pushed off cliffs. (It's striking that this is maybe the closest thing left in 4e to "save or die", imagine if there was no save!) Of course this is all speculation on my part, but it seems to fit what's in the texts pretty well.

That's how it seems to me!

 

[KarinsDad]

After review, I still think it's ambiguous at best. There is no unambiguous, explicit statement (that I can find anyway) stating that squares with a damaging effect created by a power should be treated as hindering terrain.

There are also no rules in the DMG terrain sections that state that terrain is only caused by mundane DM placed in the scenario objects either.


People might be getting a little wrapped around the axle with:

Oh, rocks. Difficult terrain.
Fog. Obscured terrain.

The thought process is that the terrain is placed by the DM.

Instead, think of it as a square. What's in it? Darkness. An effect. It obscures vision, so it's an Obscured Square or Obscured Terrain.

A Wall of Stone spell. It's Blocking Terrain, just like a wall made out of normal stone. You'll note that the Players Handbook does not discuss blocking terrain. It discusses obstacles and solid objects.

The Terrain idea that the designers put into the game is: "What is special about this square?". It doesn't really care if the cause is mundane or magical.

But when people read the word terrain, they think mundane and/or DM supplied. And this is especially true about most of the DMG with the exceptions you noted (and some wonderous special terrain later on in the DMG). This is because it is the DMG. It is about setting up encounters by the DM.

From the PC's perspective, there is no real difference between Fog and Magical Fog. They both do the exact same thing. They prevent line of sight through the square. They look the same and the game is easier to adjudicate and play if the rules work the same for both cases.

 

[Kalidrev]

I'm going to put in my 2 cents here, as I've been following along.

In d20 games (and especially in 4e), the rules are THIS IS THE BASE; these are the exceptions.

What this means is that unless something is explicitly stated that it IS, then it is NOT.

The confusing thing about this situation, is that there IS no base in this case. There is no rule in the DMG or PH that specifically says "A square is NOT hindering terrain by default unless an effect makes it so."

What this leads me to believe (as is the case with so many other things in the 4e game) is that this is something that is supposed to be adjudicated by the DM. Unfortunately, with an online community like this, that could lead to entirely too many differences in a player's At-Will power usage...and could make the player feel that his/her character is "unplayable" depending on how the DM rules things.

So 1 of 2 things needs to happen.

1: We agree to ban the power.
2: We agree on HOW the effect will work with a proposal.

I think we will all choose the latter. I am going to hold off on voting for the moment (since a proposal was put in place), but am going to wait for another round of arguments before I make up my mind.

 

[TwoHeadsBarking]

Storm Pillar is resolved. The latest update here states that damage is only taken for movement made during the enemy's turn.

 

[Kalidrev]

Yaaaay! Issue resolved. Thanks for the update THB!!

 

[CaBaNa]

Elec-squall will just have to ready action that thunderwave now...

Nah, just kidding, not trying to be a #%&@.

Excited they fixed it before Pok leveled!

did anyone have an issue with Elec-Squall adding implement damage, and elemental empowerment to Storm Pillar?

 

[stonegod]

did anyone have an issue with Elec-Squall adding implement damage, and elemental empowerment to Storm Pillar?

Has he been submitted? Don't recall seeing him.