Disenchanting

[Falling Icicle]

I'm really baffled by the rule that you only get 20% of an item's value worth of residuum from disenchanting it. Would it really break the game if players could disenchant an item and create a new item of the same value? Getting only 1/5th of an item's value is such a horrible deal I can't see why anyone would do it. In fact, I see how this could actually create alot of game balance problems and headaches for the DM. Since players are supposed to have a certain gp worth of magic items at each level, they fall far, far below that if they sell or disenchant their items, which then requires the DM to arrange for them to get other treasure (and that's a generous DM). It puts it all up to DM fiat. If you don't like the items your DM rewards you, you're just screwed.

 

[Drakhar]

I believe part of it is to keep the economy of magic items balanced. You're only supposed to be able to make or buy a magic item whose level is equal or less than your level. However during the ten encounters it takes for you to level up you find many items above your level, so if you got a high item level you don't like or can't use, instead of being able to swap it for another high level item, you get 20% of it's value.

 

[Falling Icicle]

I believe part of it is to keep the economy of magic items balanced.

But that's just it. It actually unbalances it. Let's say you get an item worth 10,000g, which puts you up to the amount of wealth you should have at that level. But you don't want the item, so you disenchant it, but only get 2,000g worth of residuum out of it. You're now 8,000g behind what a character of your level should have, forcing the DM to either leave your character behind or arrange for you to get another item.

 

[kaomera]

The DM should be placing items that you can use. There are no random item tables in 4E. To me this includes watching what the players do. If an item goes straight in the bag o' holding for later sale / disenchant, it would be wise to talk to the player(s) in question and get a reasonable replacement. Also players should keep the DM informed; if you're planning on getting feats to upgrade your item choices you don't want to find a level X+4 armor of your old type in the same adventure that you level up...

 

[VannATLC]

Meh, I don't like the 'give them what they need' approach.

I'm with Falling Icicle, on this one.. but 4e's major dissapoint, to me, is its once again bogus approach to basic economics. Fail. And fail hard.

I'm rebuilding the economy. And given I've got a high commercial and industrial use of ritualised magic in my world, I'm basing the economy of Residium.

Magic weapons are expensive because there are more survival-based uses for Residium and general magic energies.

These city states need rituals to sustain their population food sources, for reinforcing and rebuilding their walls, for keeping out the really nasty things.

 

[Zsig]

You see, in order to understand the reasoning behind that rule you'd first need to understand the standard treasure expected per level.

From the top of my head, a given party of 5 players will receive (in the space of going up 1 level):

One magic item "worth" level +1
One magic item "worth" level +2
One magic item "worth" level +3
One magic item "worth" level +4
Gold worth a magic item "worth" level (x2) (for example, at 5th level, that's 2,000 gold)

So, if like me, you think that that's a lot of magic items per level, you could simply (or not that simply) reduce the treasure gained per level, along with gold expected per level, and let the players make, create, modify their own stuff using the actual value.

 

[Regicide]

I'm really baffled by the rule that you only get 20% of an item's value worth of residuum from disenchanting it. Would it really break the game if players could disenchant an item and create a new item of the same value?

No, but it would just turn it into a monty haul campaign. 20% is about right to maintain the expected wealth of a party as they level and strip the corpses of their many victims of loot. As the party runs around murdering people for experience and the contents of their purses, if they get more than 20% from disenchant of the fat magic lewtz their wealth will balloon to crazy amounts.

 

[Aegir]

I made this same mistake before really looking into the treasure system: the balance point that magic items play in the system isn't built on wealth per level anymore, its on bonuses to attack/defenses/skill checks at certain levels. The treasure system is setup so that the DM gives out the majority of these items via loot, and the players fill the gaps via disenchant/enchant, or buy/sell/trade; its a much less rigid system then 3E.

In fact, its so much less rigid, you could perfectly maintain the balance magic items give by simply giving periodic bumps to attacks, defenses and key skills based on magic item levels: if you did that, they wouldn't need magic items at all.

Item prices come off looking very wonky, I won't argue there, but its a much more fluid system then 3E, primarily because where so much of a PCs power came from magic items in 3E, in 4E, almost none of it does.

 

[FadedC]

I actually had a bigger problem in 3e with players just selling items they found which weren't absolutely perfect for them and buying new items. It takes all the wonder of finding new stuff out of the game.

20% is enough of a penalty that players are encouraged to actually use what they find. If you give them a flaming sword and they disenchant it because they would rather have an icy sword, well then they should get poor deal from that.

You should keep in mind though that if you give them an item they absolutely can't use, your essentially only giving them residiuum. Thus it's probably better to count it as treasure worth 20% of it's value and not as one of their items.

 

[Falling Icicle]

No, but it would just turn it into a monty haul campaign. 20% is about right to maintain the expected wealth of a party as they level and strip the corpses of their many victims of loot. As the party runs around murdering people for experience and the contents of their purses, if they get more than 20% from disenchant of the fat magic lewtz their wealth will balloon to crazy amounts.

Considering that the cost of items and rituals balloons to crazy amounts, I fail to see the problem. If the players are going to have to pay an arm and a leg every time they use a ritual, they should have opportunities to make money. In 4e, the only way a player can get money is by murdering things and taking their stuff. Monty haul campaign, indeed.