Disguise and taking 20

[Nareau]

Just to throw in my $.02:
I'd allow them to take 20 on a disguise check. If I felt like making it complicated, I'd put a cap on it:

If disguising to look "different from before", I'd limit their success to: 20 + highest spot modifier in the group + circumstantial bonuses (+8 or +10, depending on if the group is more than "just friends"...); Indeed, I might even allow the cap to be +2/person who's "aiding".

This is to reflect that as the makeup artist takes 20, he can only make improvements that he or his friends can spot. His friends are studying his work, taking 20 on their spot checks. They know what the original looks like, so they're really tough critics (+8 to their spot checks for being friends). They're all chipping in with their input, so they're aiding the best spotter. Easily, the cap will be 40-50, depending on how many people are helping and how good they are at spotting.

Chances are, the disguiser isn't going to hit that cap. Even taking 20, +10 ranks, +5 for "minor details", and another +2/person helping to disguise. But it's possible that you'd have a professional makeup artist doing great work, with a bunch of witless morons who can't spot worth a damn. The cap would certainly come into play there.

Spider

 

[Nareau]

This is my rationale for all opposed checks. With an Open Lock check it doesn't matter when you score that 20, only that you do. With a Disguise check, your last attempt is the only one that counts.

My thinking is that after each attempt, your buddies take 20 on their spot checks. If they see a flaw, you do it again. If they can't recognize the subject, that was your last attempt.

Spider

 

[MerakSpielman]

It seems logically that at some point the person applying the disguise would be able to tell that it looks pretty good, as opposed to having no clue whether the subject looked like the target image at all. Not knowing how well he's doing at the disguise check sort of implies that he's applying the disguise with his eyes closed.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

It seems logically that at some point the person applying the disguise would be able to tell that it looks pretty good, as opposed to having no clue whether the subject looked like the target image at all. Not knowing how well he's doing at the disguise check sort of implies that he's applying the disguise with his eyes closed.

Yeah, this is how I imagine 'Take 10' works in this situation.

"Yeah, this disguise looks pretty good. We're ready to go. Now it's all up to how well you can act like [insert target here]..."

My thinking is that after each attempt, your buddies take 20 on their spot checks. If they see a flaw, you do it again. If they can't recognize the subject, that was your last attempt.

Your buddies' Spot checks are meaningless, because every time you make a Disguise check is different. As I said before, it's not just the physical disguise that makes the check, it's passing yourself off as the guy in question. And your buddies are no good way to determine how well the guard at the gate knows his Captain's behavior.

 

[MerakSpielman]

I'm going to expand my initial ruling.

I will not allow taking 20 when the disguise is intended to imitate a particular individual. In such a circumstance I will allow a "take 10" if the disguiser takes a significant amount of time on the disguise. The disguise-ee will still provide the Cha-bonus.

However in the situation in my game, the characters weren't attempting to duplicate other people, they were disguising themselves to look unlike themselves. The idea was that they would be difficult to recognize from, say, a wanted poster. In this circumstance I think a "take 20" should be allowed. It's pretty easy, if taking enough time, to change hair color, facial hair, skin color, and clothing to look like a completely different person. Nobody in particular - just not who you were to begin with.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

However in the situation in my game, the characters weren't attempting to duplicate other people, they were disguising themselves to look unlike themselves. The idea was that they would be difficult to recognize from, say, a wanted poster. In this circumstance I think a "take 20" should be allowed. It's pretty easy, if taking enough time, to change hair color, facial hair, skin color, and clothing to look like a completely different person. Nobody in particular - just not who you were to begin with.

Okay, I can see myself being pursuaded to make this ruling. The charisma bonus of the Disguise-ee would be enough to represent a person trying to be "not themself" in public.

I would deny them the auto-20 and have them make a roll (or accept a Take 10 in lieu of the 20) if they were Spotted by someone who knew them personally. But other than that, I could see allowing the Take 20 to stand with regards to being Spotted from a Wanted Poster...

 

[Tatsukun]

In such a circumstance I will allow a "take 10" if the disguiser takes a significant amount of time on the disguise. QUOTE]

Why extra time if they are just taking 10? If they are taking ten, the disguise attempt takes 1D3X10 minutes, so that's a pretty long time. Is that what you meant?

Wow, I am thinking of how long the process in my post above would take.

Taking 20 on disguise = 1D3 X 200 Minutes
Taking 20 on 20 stop checks = 40 minutes

Total = between 4 hours and 10 hours 40 minutes. (Average of 7 hours 20 minutes or so) That's a long time !

-Tatsu

 

[Nareau]

For the sake of argument, what would you do in the following situation:
Bonzo: OK, I'm done doing your makeup Frank (rolls a disguise check, gets a 15). What do you think, guys?
Bill: I dunno, Bonzo. (rolls a spot check, gets a 17 after all his bonuses) He still really looks like Frank. Maybe if you gave him elf ears or something.
Bonzo: Ah, ok. Well, let's start over.
Bill: Here, let me help you (rolls a 12 on his Disguise check, sufficient to succeed at the "aid another" action)
<<Repeat until Bonzo rolls sufficiently well to beat Bill's spot check>>

In my opinion, this is exactly the kind of situation the "Take 20" rules were created to avoid.

Spider

 

[Storyteller01]

This is how I rule it as well. IMO a PC can't ever know when they've achieved a 20 on an opposed roll. The rogue trying to set up an ambush can't keep Hiding until he finally says "yeah, this is as hidden as I can get." The bard can't keep redoing his makeup until he comes to a point where he can say "yeah, this is the best I can do." Especially since such opposed checks are partially governed by raw ability scores.

For Disguise, I'd allow Take 10. The PC has a good chance of knowing when he's done what is, for him, a "fair job." But not Take 20.

Not being arguementative, but...

Why not? That's the whole point of stage art and special effects make up (they continue the process until they get the look they want). Stage artists can do this while still taking into account the stage lighting. If you've ever seen that type of make-up in normal lighting and on stage, the difference is uncanny. The only reason that I think this would be possible is because the applier knows what they want (ie: knows what a 20 looks like).

 

[DreamChaser]

Aid Another much...

Applying a disguise to someone is not the same as disguising yourself. If you do it to someone else, that person still has to pull it off (it is a Cha based skill which means it is based on their performance). When you use your disguise skill on someone else, you are using the Aid Another action. That means a +2 to their Disguise skill check if you get a 15 or more. (I HR this to allow better checks to proved better bonuses, but that is another thread).

The same is true when you "Hide" someone else. You are using the Aid Another action (+2).

Any opposed roll is by definition performance dependant. You cannot make a check for another person in any situation, and this situation is no exception. And because failure is not fixed, as a group of 15 people could have 10 people see through the disguise (failure) and 5 people not (success), there is no real way of knowing whether you need to retry. Thus, taking 20 is, at best, problematic.

Taking-10 would be fine though.

DC