D&D 4E Disillusionment from 4E

[billd91]

I came to the realization during a session of D&D Encounters that I was running. The realization is that for the first time in 29 years…I am not having fun with D&D! This feeling kind of scared the begezus out of me. I have loved every edition of D&D since BECMI and each version more than the previous. I have been enjoying 4E a lot… until lately. I started thinking about what was the cause and came to several conclusions. The actions of WOTC with essentials, product cancelations and a less than impressive showing at the GAMA trade show made me actually think about the game future. With that I started to realize that I wouldn’t miss it. I have been unhappy with the quality of D&D for a couple years. 4E’s perceived focus on combat was noticeable to me but not bothersome until a few years of it. Encounters really started showing me that there was something missing, I couldn’t say what, just a nagging feeling. The writing of D&D’s adventures has been falling below what I would consider acceptable for a while now. The entire DDI concept and follow-through has been poor in my opinion. Especially killing the adventure tools and character builder for the online versions, that well, are less than the originals to be nice. Not directly related to the rules, but the loss of the miniature line really got me as well. Don’t get me wrong, I love the hell out of D&D, but WOTC’s current leadership has tainted the heck out of everything and left me with a bad taste. 4E comes down to an illusion, an illusion of options, an illusion of choice, and an illusion of quality. I mean really, when skill challenges let you use just about any skill to accomplish any task, what is the point of differentiation. Bear with me; I know I’m not giving a ton of good examples, just some highlights of my disgruntlement. After thinking about my issues with 4E, I couldn’t enjoy DMing it anymore…and that is a most impressive feat if there ever was one. I actually threw a celebration declaring the end of my running 4E for good. The ending of playing does seem inevitable as well.

On one level, this sounds like your typical garden variety burnout. Taking a break from the game burning you out is the best prescription - mix in other games and other formats than D&D Encounters. That style of running a game is probably going to burn you out faster than the average ongoing home campaign.

On another level, you've got to learn to separate the stewardship of the game from the game itself. It can be hard, particularly when you come to the conclusion that the pass time you've invested a lifetime of effort into is either endangered or seriously in jeopardy of moving in a completely different direction from the one you want, but it will happen to every game sooner or later. Companies go out of business, they stop producing a particular product line, they change directions. When the official support is gone, gamers just have to take things into their own hands or shift games. Now, I wouldn't be surprised if this becomes a worse issue for 4e than previous editions. The DDI has, I think, become so much of a focus for players and DMs that I wouldn't be surprised to see the 4e-playing community dry up in short order once official 4e support is eventually phased out. That is, however, probably several years down the road. In the meantime, I recommend participating in various threads critical of WotC's business decisions to get it out of your system.

And finally, it does sound to me like you are actually having problems with 4e itself and not just the D&D Encounters format (contrary to some other advice you've gotten). I would recommend really analyzing how you want a game like 4e to fit into your leisure time and gaming hobby. Do you want it to be your main RPG? Or do you want something with different forms of variation between characters and skills? Would 4e still be a good occasional, pickup, beer and pretzels game? Along with this analysis, I strongly recommend mixing in some other games to play with your friends. There are plenty of other RPGs out there worth investigating including Pathfinder, Call of Cthulhu, Villains and Vigilantes (it really is back), Mutants and Masterminds, Dread, Aces and Eights, and more.

 

[Pentius]

My first recommendation is for you to stop DMing Encounters. Start a home game as DM, or join one as a player, and focus on actually playing instead of looking at how WotC is doing things. But you sound like you might be past the point where that would help.

Try some other games, even non-D&D games. It's a win/win scenario, really. Either you'll find something new that you really like, or you won't find anything you like, and remember why you played D&D for so long.

 

[DracoSuave]

Yeah burn out happens.

One of the best things to do is stop playing D&D all together, and branch out and try other game systems and other games.

It really gets the creative juices going, and it gets you out of any edition wars mindset.

 

[enigma5915]

On one level, this sounds like your typical garden variety burnout. Taking a break from the game burning you out is the best prescription - mix in other games and other formats than D&D Encounters. That style of running a game is probably going to burn you out faster than the average ongoing home campaign.

On another level, you've got to learn to separate the stewardship of the game from the game itself. It can be hard, particularly when you come to the conclusion that the pass time you've invested a lifetime of effort into is either endangered or seriously in jeopardy of moving in a completely different direction from the one you want, but it will happen to every game sooner or later. Companies go out of business, they stop producing a particular product line, they change directions. When the official support is gone, gamers just have to take things into their own hands or shift games. Now, I wouldn't be surprised if this becomes a worse issue for 4e than previous editions. The DDI has, I think, become so much of a focus for players and DMs that I wouldn't be surprised to see the 4e-playing community dry up in short order once official 4e support is eventually phased out. That is, however, probably several years down the road. In the meantime, I recommend participating in various threads critical of WotC's business decisions to get it out of your system.

And finally, it does sound to me like you are actually having problems with 4e itself and not just the D&D Encounters format (contrary to some other advice you've gotten). I would recommend really analyzing how you want a game like 4e to fit into your leisure time and gaming hobby. Do you want it to be your main RPG? Or do you want something with different forms of variation between characters and skills? Would 4e still be a good occasional, pickup, beer and pretzels game? Along with this analysis, I strongly recommend mixing in some other games to play with your friends. There are plenty of other RPGs out there worth investigating including Pathfinder, Call of Cthulhu, Villains and Vigilantes (it really is back), Mutants and Masterminds, Dread, Aces and Eights, and more.

@billd91 You sir have hit the proverbial nail on the head!

The issues I have had are not necessarily encounters themselves, but 4E as a whole. I think the Encounter sessions I had been running have really spotlighted the weak points of 4E. Not to mention that the writing is less than par. The turbulence within WOTC itself made me think about future viability of the game. The question hit me…What if WOTC dropped the ball and D&D as we know it stopped… My first thought was that I have every book since BECMI and I can simply play any previous edition I choose…but what would I choose.

I have been DMing since the age of 10 and have house ruled since the beginning and with each edition change I noticed much of my house rules as standard rules in the next edition. Never enough mind you to completely satisfy me, but enough to entice and excite me. 4E was the first change that I thought was the most complete until I peered deep within it during much playing and DMing. It is rather hollow to me now, as if I pulled away a veil. SO…anyways what edition to play…Well I figured that they all would require heavy house ruling and a lot of writing on my part… Which do I pick or do I bite the bullet and put my creativity and passion to the test and write my own.

I know what I want, I know I can deliver, I know there is something great waiting… maybe 4E was just a catalyst…Thank you billd91!

Now, what’s next?

 

[enigma5915]

I want to take a moment and thank everyone for their input so far. This is all very helpfull and It is much apprectiated. Enworld is truely where one can find the best gaming minds.

 

[drothgery]

I dont understand the comment:

"2nd level character only needs about an 11 to hit. But then, a 15th level character still needs about an 11 to hit."

In previous editions or in other games does this change? when you level up is it harder or easier to hit things? as you level up did you just stop rolling because you could never miss or did you eventually give up because it was impossible to hit things?

Edit: Perhaps it was in previous editions non AC defenses were quite swingy with saves, a save could vary by 20 if depending on the roll.

Yes. AC in high-level 3.5e was pretty much only useful for defending against iterative attacks unless you went all-out in optimizing for AC (highly magic heavy armor and shield, lots of shield-boosting feats from PHB2, Knight levels, etc.). Nothing had a good enough AC to be missed on anything much worse than 5 from the primary attack of a modestly optimized full BAB character. Now, you didn't stop rolling at that point because the iterative attack system meant you had attacks at +huge number, +huge number-5, +huge number-10, and +huge number-15 (the last two having non-trivial chances of missing).

Saves similarly became pretty nearly impossible for monsters if you dumped most of your character resources into making them that way (and it was silly not to, unless you were just focusing on spells that didn't require saves).

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

I will echo what some have suggested, and recommend that you play some other, radically different games for a while to recharge your batteries.

When I get burnt out on D&D (and this has happened to me in every edition), I usually take a break by going to Shadowrun or Call of Cthulhu for a while. They're about as different from D&D as you can get, and can be every bit as fun.

 

[Saracenus]

I am the guy that coordinates Encounters @ Guardian Games in Portland, OR (we run 6 tables a week) and even I took a break from DMing (right now I am playing and I have subbed for missing DMs twice this season).

I will second and third a lot of what has been said here already, take a break from Encounters at the very least and probably 4e for at least a little while. Go scratch the itch you seem to have found.

I am joining a Pathfinder home campaign in August (player only, I won't DM 3e again, too much work, 4e has spoiled me).

If Pathfinder or 3.5 aren't what you are looking for, then try Savage Worlds/Mouse Guard, Dresden Files, Call of Cuthulu, World of Darkness or any of a host of other systems. It will give you some much needed perspective and most likely spark some creativity on how to approach 4e if you return.

If you want to taste an interesting thought experiment on 4e check out 4th Core. These guys have shown that 4e is very elastic in supporting different play styles and goals.

Indy games like Dread and Fiasco can stretch your RP muscles in ways you didn't know you could.

Try out some old or new boardgames. I have been playing Zombies, Zombiegeon, Wrath of Ashalderon, and Talisman in the past few months. I also have played a few games of Munchkin (Super and Zombie Munchkin FTW). I am chomping at the bit to try out Conquest of Nerath and I need to have an Axis and Allies marathon this summer (that anniversary addition is calling to me).

I downloaded the Temple of Elemental Evil computer game from gog.com and then patched the heck out of it from the Council of Eight mod site... it still has some quirks but its been a lot of fun pillaging the Temple. The game runs well on my laptop.

All in all, get out and smell the gaming roses, there are tons to try out and go get your gaming smile back...

My two coppers,

 

[herrozerro]

Yes. AC in high-level 3.5e was pretty much only useful for defending against iterative attacks unless you went all-out in optimizing for AC (highly magic heavy armor and shield, lots of shield-boosting feats from PHB2, Knight levels, etc.). Nothing had a good enough AC to be missed on anything much worse than 5 from the primary attack of a modestly optimized full BAB character. Now, you didn't stop rolling at that point because the iterative attack system meant you had attacks at +huge number, +huge number-5, +huge number-10, and +huge number-15 (the last two having non-trivial chances of missing).

Saves similarly became pretty nearly impossible for monsters if you dumped most of your character resources into making them that way (and it was silly not to, unless you were just focusing on spells that didn't require saves).

I think this is where i prefer 4e over 3e, I prefer a game with actual defenses rather then rocket tag.

 

[catastrophic]

What I want is a game that's simple to create characters in, plays relatively smoothly while allowing some tactical decisions, and has a great sense of adventure.

If you haven't done so already, take a look at savage worlds.