D&D 4E Disillusionment from 4E

[Neverfate]

One of the issues here is that D&D Encounters just isn't meant for anyone who enjoys anything else in D&D other than the combat mechanics. If you're not a huge fan of combat it will burn 4e out for you. Try a proper campaign instead.

Also, I think since WotC is essentially (no pun intended) relaunching D&D 4E without just admitting it is a relaunch, it creates this rough devide. What they don't want to tell us is that Paragon and Epic scares them in terms of development and production. They don't really know how to create at that level and that's a problem I see echoed here on the boards by a lot of users. A lot of us don't know how to write or create at that level, so PCs will suddenly out-pace any straight-forward combat, or cement it into a long slog.

I think anyone who's patience has worn thin as WotC re-learns how to make material for 4E should seek out something else they desire, because 4E won't be back on track for at least a year or 2 at this rate. So come back then.

 

[Arnix]

In previous editions or in other games does this change? when you level up is it harder or easier to hit things? as you level up did you just stop rolling because you could never miss or did you eventually give up because it was impossible to hit things?

1e/2e IIRC, AC could not be better than -12 (-10 for PCs, -12 for Gold Dragons). This meant at some point you hit almost every swing. In 1e, if you needed less than 1 to hit then the die roll was added to damage (footnote in one of the charts).

Edit: Perhaps it was in previous editions non AC defenses were quite swingy with saves, a save could vary by 20 if depending on the roll.

Saves were less "attack" and more "defend". I think I really miss that. It has a different feel for essentially the same result. Heck, if you go back to 1e/2e then saves were a crap shoot as to what you needed or which one to use.

 

[Herschel]

One of the issues here is that D&D Encounters just isn't meant for anyone who enjoys anything else in D&D other than the combat mechanics. If you're not a huge fan of combat it will burn 4e out for you. Try a proper campaign instead.

Yeah, Encounters is basically training wheels for 4E play. It's where new players can learn the basics or experienced players can start new characters for Organized Play or try different things out. That's fine and dandy for players, but for DMs it's same old, same old as you're running for low-level characters all the time.

 

[TerraDave]

I dont understand the comment:

"2nd level character only needs about an 11 to hit. But then, a 15th level character still needs about an 11 to hit."

In previous editions or in other games does this change? when you level up is it harder or easier to hit things? as you level up did you just stop rolling because you could never miss or did you eventually give up because it was impossible to hit things?

Edit: Perhaps it was in previous editions non AC defenses were quite swingy with saves, a save could vary by 20 if depending on the roll.

In 1E and 2E, you got more likely to succeed at pretty much everything as you went up in level (which was kind of the point of leveling). Attacks, saves, skills or the equivelent (well, except for non-weapon proficiencies..).

3E confused this with iterative attacks and variable save (and to a lesser extent) and skill DCs. But for PCs, % of success would still tend to go up.

4E seems to be built on keeping probabilities pretty flat across levels.

 

[herrozerro]

4E seems to be built on keeping probabilities pretty flat across levels.

I only find this true when dealing with things equal to your level. once you start deviating from your level of challenge the difficulty changes pretty quick.

 

[TerraDave]

I would hope so!

This of course is also true of....other rpgs. I could guess you can argue that by keeping things even, varying the level of the challenge works a little better. Or something like that.

 

[Dannager]

I only find this true when dealing with things equal to your level. once you start deviating from your level of challenge the difficulty changes pretty quick.

More importantly, 4e is constructed in such a way that, as you level, you as the player have the ability to define what you need to roll in order to be effective.

So, yes, when fighting a monster of your level, your average 4e character will need to roll an 11 whether he's at level 2 or level 15.

But if you're the player, every level gives you more opportunities to select character options that help define what you need to roll. If you want to focus on accuracy above all else, you might eventually get to the point where you only need to roll a 4 or 5 to hit a typical monster of your level. Or you might throw accuracy to the wind and rely on auto-damage features, so you might let that number slip to a 13 or 14 to hit.

 

[mudlock]

Another vote for "it's not 4e, it's Encounters."

Unless of course you didn't get burned out running Encounters for 3e and 2e and... oh, right, those DIDN'T EXIST. Confounding variable is confounding.

 

[The Human Target]

Yeah, Encounters will kill any DMs soul eventually.

4E has been the most fun I've ever had with D&D.

 

[Moorcrys]

Another vote for "it's not 4e, it's Encounters."

I'm a big fan of 4e, but I think in addition to it being the railroad nature of Encounters, I also feel as though WotC has set up a system where they funnel you to their premade adventure materials. Which I would argue are the weakest of their offerings.

A lot of 1st-3rd edition was encouraging you to make up your own stuff, or at least tweak things to your individual players and campaign. The 4th edition offerings, particularly through the character building and monster builder, don't allow you to tweak anything. I think this is a mistake. There should also be articles in Dungeon and Dragon on homebrewing, on messing with the material they give you for your own campaign world, and the tools they offer through DDI should support that, imho.

To me, it feels like WotC is constantly attempting to sell to the beginning player, without attempting to create or at least modify current tools to assist journeyman/expert DMs and players in making the system theirs. That's where all of the - everything is the same - issue comes into play... most of the non-rules support material they release seems to attempt to take the most generic, all encompassing route possible, the side effect of which is it encourages generic, unspecific gaming.

There are exceptions - I'd venture that Gloomwrought and Dark Sun are pretty evocative and interesting, with some great new mechanics... themes, despair deck, etc. But you as DM or player/DM should be encouraged to mess around a bit with the mechanics as you see fit for your campaign, and DDI and the online builders should at least have some basic support tools to do so, IMHO. Especially when 4e is SO modular, particularly with monsters! Why shouldn't there be tools to mix and match monster powers and abilities to create your own, with some basic balancing mechanic built in, especially when it seems as though most of the work to allow it has been done.

Cheers.