Displacement - a bit wussy eh? Mirror image too...

[Jack99]

Sorry, but a re-roll is a low level power when compared to some of the abilities that we have seen so far.

The only time that this power is significantly useful is if the PC got criticaled. Then, 95-% of the time, less damage would occur (the same damage could occur if the critical is re-rolled or if the damage dice on a normal hit maxed out).

I do agree that re-rolling is a relatively weak power. But, with only one attack per character, one re-rolled attack is like a whole round of re-rolled attacks in 3.5. Even more so, if it a daily power that you force a re-roll on.

 

[Delta]

And about mirror image, I expect that it was an error, and that you lose an image only if it is a miss *because of the power* (so if it miss by more than 6 you don't lose an image).

I would strongly bet otherwise. That's the kind of side-effect math operation that it looks like they're trying to specifically clean out of the new rules (in their supposed attempt to simplify things).

In fact, that looks a lot like the classic "missile shot into melee, what happens on a miss" rule that the designers have expostulated on at great length about what a bad complex idea it is.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Doesn't displacement force the attacker to keep the *lower* roll ?

Not according the text on that page!

 

[Benimoto]

The spells, for the most part, look fine to me. I like the fact that with mirror image, there's no wrangling about whether if an attack missed, it missed narrowly enough to hit an image, or which exact image did it hit or anything. The spell is simplified, and that's they way I like it. There's no math about figuring out the mirror image's AC, and no figuring out, every time you hit, the odds of how likely it is that you'll hit either the wizard or one of his 6 images. Plus, as people have mentioned, mirror image was sort of ridiculously powerful, basically at any level. Anything which drives the miss chance above the miss chance for full concealment or invisibility is silly, in my book. This things reasonable and simple. There's no extra rolling, which is great. Plus, think of it this way. If an enemy needs to roll a 13 to hit the wizard before the wizards casts mirror image, then the wizard has just made himself 1/4 as likely to get hit. Voila.

That said, I would personally like it better if only misses which targeted AC destroyed an image.

I like the Displacement spell too. I like that it's an encounter power that works on anyone. It makes the wizard helpful to the rest of the party, or at least whoever's getting hit really bad. Gameplay-wise, I think that it will usually work out that the wizard only uses the power whenever the results of a reroll couldn't possibly be any worse, like when the target is getting critically hit, or it's a life-or-death situation.

Like most of you, I'm surprised at how high-level all the spells are, but this is something that I'd like to evaluate in some context, not just what level the spells "always were".

 

[Cadfan]

A reroll isn't a weak power. Ever.

Rerolls scale with level because the things they negate scale with level.

Maybe this is a "you think its weak, I think its powerful, maybe that means its balanced" type situation. Because I would definitely take Displacement.

Flip through the monster's we've seen so far. You can only judge the power level of a reroll in the context of what is being rerolled. Consider the Bodak Reaver's Per Encounter Death Gaze. Its a ranged attack, so you can force it to reroll. So, in a fight against a Bodak Reaver, Displacment is equal in power to the ability to reroll a save vs an auto-reduction to zero hit points.

And best of all, the Bodak Reaver only has the ability to do that once per encounter, and you only have to use Displacement if your ally fails the initial saving throw.

There are certain effects which automatically scale as your enemies scale, and are therefore worthwhile regardless of level. These are generally powers which grant or deny actions. And that's essentially what a reroll does.

 

[Dragonblade]

A reroll isn't a weak power. Ever.

Rerolls scale with level because the things they negate scale with level.

Maybe this is a "you think its weak, I think its powerful, maybe that means its balanced" type situation. Because I would definitely take Displacement.

Flip through the monster's we've seen so far. You can only judge the power level of a reroll in the context of what is being rerolled. Consider the Bodak Reaver's Per Encounter Death Gaze. Its a ranged attack, so you can force it to reroll. So, in a fight against a Bodak Reaver, Displacment is equal in power to the ability to reroll a save vs an auto-reduction to zero hit points.

And best of all, the Bodak Reaver only has the ability to do that once per encounter, and you only have to use Displacement if your ally fails the initial saving throw.

There are certain effects which automatically scale as your enemies scale, and are therefore worthwhile regardless of level. These are generally powers which grant or deny actions. And that's essentially what a reroll does.

I would take Displacement too. I think Displacement is good for all the reasons that Cadfan outlines.

 

[RigaMortus2]

I agree that the Mirror Image thing is kind of lame if the monster would have missed anyway. I would probably houserule it so that the images are only dispelled if the monster otherwise would have hit but missed only due to the bonus provided by the images. Although this might make the spell a bit more powerful than intended.

But then you need some sort of stacking order for defense. For example, if my AC is 20 (Base 10, +4 Dex, +6 Mirror Image). If the attack roll is a 12, did I miss because of the +4 to Dex or the +6 from Mirror Image? Which do you apply first? Why? What you propose works fine, as long as there is a rule for which order you stack bonuses to Defense.

What happens if you have a power where you can make an Opportunity Attack against a target who misses you because of Dex? Then you would run into a situation where, why did they miss you, because of Dex bonus or because of MI?

 

[Dausuul]

But if the game is not nerfed to that extent, then it really does not bode well that a designer wrote these two spells down the way they are written at all. Even if they are fixed now, it means that whomever wrote these spells down did not know game balance and total rules requirements from a hole in the ground and shouldn't be designing this stuff in the first place. It means that with the entire model re-design of 4E spells, we might be seeing a lot of issues here. That's not a good thing for the consumers, for WotC, or for the DND franchise.

As stated earlier, re-rolls scale with level. It's not like direct-damage spells. A re-roll at level 30 is just as powerful as a re-roll at level 1.

You seem to be stuck in the 3.5E mindset that all effects must scale up as you advance; if a 1st-level spell dazes one monster for one round, then a 15th-level spell must daze several monsters for several rounds. But that's a recipe for broken wizards; because it means that the wizard is getting more and more powerful relative to monsters of the same level.

Re-rolls are level-independent. They have just as much impact on a 30th-level monster as on a 1st-level one. Therefore, the level assigned to a re-roll power is essentially arbitrary; this particular power could be granted at 1st level or 15th or 30th, and it would be balanced regardless, because it is equally useful at all of those levels.

If you ask me, this spell represents the 4E designers realizing some vitally important things about game balance, and applying them.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Maybe this is a "you think its weak, I think its powerful, maybe that means its balanced" type situation

I've never held with the idea that balance can be inferred by two strongly opposing opinions about a subject. I think that something is typically balanced if the consensus is that it is balanced (or at least the majority). If there are two different views it just means that it is controversial, not that it is balanced!

This might be true, but there is a more fundamental issue here.

It's a problem that these spells got written the way PS listed them in the first place.

I agree. The principle that they've taken for creating these powers should theoretically allow them to be models of simplicity and clarity - but just on this page alone I don't think they seem to be.

I would have expected issues like this to have been considered when the text was still in the galley stage, well before it made it to print layout!

The displacement spell mechanics raises another question in my mind (which might have been addressed in other general text somewhere we haven't seen yet). How do various reroll abilities interact? The elf shoots at a halfling. He uses Elven accuracy to re-roll the attack. The Halfling wants to use his second chance... does he do that after the Elf has determined the actual results of his roll, or can the Elf use his elven accuracy *after* the halfling has used his second chance to force a reroll of the initial attack?

What if the elven ranger wants to "Split the Tree" and so rolls twice and takes the best one, but even that isn't so good and he wants to use elven accuracy - does he reroll one of those two attack rolls or both of them, or compare his re-roll to his final result?

If the elven ranger wants to use Split the Tree to shoot two enemies, a halfling and a kobold. He wants to use his elven accuracy and the halfling wants to use his Second Chance and his wizard friend wants to use displacement on the halfling. What combination of rolls are going to be used then?

I wonder how the rules will handle these kind of combinations which exist just amongst the handful of rules we know?

(I wish they'd let me be a playtester )

Cheers

 

[Dragonblade]

But then you need some sort of stacking order for defense. For example, if my AC is 20 (Base 10, +4 Dex, +6 Mirror Image). If the attack roll is a 12, did I miss because of the +4 to Dex or the +6 from Mirror Image? Which do you apply first? Why? What you propose works fine, as long as there is a rule for which order you stack bonuses to Defense.

What happens if you have a power where you can make an Opportunity Attack against a target who misses you because of Dex? Then you would run into a situation where, why did they miss you, because of Dex bonus or because of MI?

You make good points. For simplicity I would say that you consider what AC would be with Mirror Image (AC 20) and without (AC 14). If the monster would have hit AC 14, but not AC 20 then the Mirror Image took the attack. If the monster hits AC 21+ then the attack hits anyway (i.e. hits the wizard instead of an image).

If the attack would not have hit AC 14, then the attack would have missed anyway. I'll likely run the game by the book for the first 6 months anyway. If the spell works fine in play then I won't houserule it. I don't like houseruling things until I try them first to make sure I understand the impact of my changes. After all, trying 1-1-1 movement is what convinced me that it was actually a change for the better.