Displacement - a bit wussy eh? Mirror image too...

[Dragonblade]

Yeah, these spells really suck, especially compared to their 3e counterparts. It looks like that Wizards will not only have far fewer spells, but the spells they have will be far weaker. I fear that in their crusade to "balance" the wizard class, they have gone too far and nerfed it into oblivion.

I don't know if I would say this yet. I need to see the rules as a whole. In my 4e playtest I was playing the Wizard (and the Cleric, simultaneously), and I was definitely laying the smack down.

 

[Gargazon]

I think I'll point out something that just occured to me about Mirror Image - it is clearly not designed to be a 'let's throw some defences up at the start of an encounter' spell, it's designed to be a 'oh crap, the fighter's down and the ogre with the massive club is coming to make a fine paste of me, don't want to be hit!' spell. You don't take it so you can go 'Oh, this'll help us at the start of the fight', but more as life insurance for when Ogres go clubbing near you.

Which I think is a good way to look at all Daily powers. These are not powers you throw away on a simple minion, these are powers you save for the bad-ass Black Dragon who's going to literally melt your face. They require inspection with a more tactical eye, not with the mindset of 'Oh, that power is completely useless when I use it in a non-specific situation where I probably don't need it'.

 

[Goreg Skullcrusher]

I don't know if I would say this yet. I need to see the rules as a whole. In my 4e playtest I was playing the Wizard (and the Cleric, simultaneously), and I was definitely laying the smack down.

I think he perhaps meant the versatility of the wizards utility spells. From what I've seen the 4E wizard seems like a potent version of the 3.5 Warmage, a definite nerf compared to the 3.x Wizard. Without seeing rituals it may be unfair to make this assessment.

 

[Dragonblade]

I think he perhaps meant the versatility of the wizards utility spells. From what I've seen the 4E wizard seems like a potent version of the 3.5 Warmage, a definite nerf compared to the 3.x Wizard. Without seeing rituals it may be unfair to make this assessment.

Good point. Keith Baker did say that until we see rituals we are only seeing half the magic system.

 

[Kishin]

Mirror Image was incredibly powerful for its spell tier.

It pretty much needed the nerf.

 

[Ipissimus]

I can see what they're trying to do with Mirror Image. The depleting +6 AC makes it less likely for the next three regular attacks to hit you, which feeds into the depletion factor, etc. It might help keep the damage down if you're surrounded by minions. Still, this is supposed to be a daily? Considering that Sleep seems more useful than this, I wonder if Mirror Image will be downgraded to an Encounter power. On the other hand, I guess that Sleep does have a chance of not working completely, where as protections tend to work... ugh. Still wussy.

And yeah, Displacement's claim to fame is the immediate interrupt, as well as its wide range of effectiveness. As long as it's a ranged or melee attack, doesn't matter what defense it goes against... ok, it only forces a re-roll every encounter. I'll take some hope vs. none as a free action.

Sooooo, if these are examples of the sorts of high-level powers we'll be getting, who would like to start the whinging that 4E, despite being more powerful at low level, is nerfed?

 

[MerricB]

Displacement is fairly awesome. Why? It takes an immediate action. That is, you use it as a reaction and it doesn't take up any of the actions on your turn.

Cheers!

 

[Stalker0]

One thing people are forgetting, attack rolls aren't just attacks anymore.

How would like a reroll from being dominated, fireballed, or dispelled?

 

[Dausuul]

Remember that both of these spells are minor or immediate actions. As such, they will not and should not pack anywhere near the punch of spells that use a standard action. Imagine that each of these spells is usable as a standard action, but in addition to its listed effect, it also has the effect of one of the wizard's at-will powers at that level.

Sooooo, if these are examples of the sorts of high-level powers we'll be getting, who would like to start the whinging that 4E, despite being more powerful at low level, is nerfed?

4E at high levels has absolutely been nerfed. If you look at monster XP values, you'll see that they double every 4 levels; whereas in 3.5E, monster power doubled every 2 levels (CR). Assuming that PC power follows the same trend, and if we figure level 1 in 4E equals level 4 in 3.5E, then a 20th-level 3.5E character is almost 70% more powerful than a 30th-level 4E character.

...or, perhaps I should say, a 20th-level 3.5E party is 70% more powerful than a 30th-level 4E party. After all, a 20th-level 3.5E caster and a 20th-level 3.5E fighter are not quite on the same level.

Not that I have any objections to this. Monsters became obsolete much too fast in 3.X, and high-level play was frickin' insane.

 

[Gargazon]

Sooooo, if these are examples of the sorts of high-level powers we'll be getting, who would like to start the whinging that 4E, despite being more powerful at low level, is nerfed?

I would not neccessarily say it has been nerfed (not that a product that hasn't yet been released can be nerfed ). I would say it has been more... standardised.

The Wizard is no longer the equivalent of a flying deathcopter, destroying foes with waves of his fingers, while the Fighter stands and watches - beside him sitting the Rogue, who sheds a single tear at his insignificance.

Would you say that the Fighter has been nerfed? I certainly would not, he now seems to be as big a threat in combat as the Wizard. Which, in any game designed to be fun for everybody, is really what you want.

The Wizard has been nerfed, yes, if you compare him to what he was in 3.5. But look at what he was in 3.5. There was much beating with the nerf bat to be had if he was to be balanced with the other, more mundane classes.