Displacement - a bit wussy eh? Mirror image too...

[HeavenShallBurn]

I don't think 1000 hitpoints of damage a round from a fighter is possible, even at 39th level. How would that be done?

I have played in a 40 level game, and if you weren't a caster you were pretty much dead.

I'll direct you to the Wizard's CharOp board where many builds make 1000 damage possible. It's more accurate to say a caster is necessary to the survival of the party as a whole at high levels. You can survive just fine so long as the casters provide with buffs that occupy their expendable resources. Just as the casters are generally dependent upon the non-casters for pure damage dealing while they shine on status effects that have to get through SR and often very high saves. But the non-casters have a source of damage they can count on and while it may not be showy like a SoD it can be relied on and won't run out.

 

[Dragonblade]

I'll direct you to the Wizard's CharOp board where many builds make 1000 damage possible. It's more accurate to say a caster is necessary to the survival of the party as a whole at high levels. You can survive just fine so long as the casters provide with buffs that occupy their expendable resources. Just as the casters are generally dependent upon the non-casters for pure damage dealing while they shine on status effects that have to get through SR and often very high saves. But the non-casters have a source of damage they can count on and while it may not be showy like a SoD it can be relied on and won't run out.

Ah yes.

I have only ever seen one build from those boards do that much damage and it was a hulking hurler build based off some dubious assumptions about how much damage boulders could do. But I have seen some crazy stuff from there, no doubt.

 

[drjones]

Ignoring the fact that we have limited/inaccurate info I really don't know how anyone can talk about the wizard being 'nerfed' when the entire game has changed including every single thing you will ever fight. That is like saying they really nerfed the pistol in Bioshock because it did less damage than the one in Goldeneye.

Do you Really think they are going to release a game where a xth level Wizard can't kill anything?

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

Ah yes. ...... But I have seen some crazy stuff from there, no doubt.

I've had more than a dozen builds in my campaigns that hit 1000 per round without caster levels and without the end run of the Hulking Hurler. It's actually not quite so harsh, I've seen a build that uses two exploits and a Bo9S maneuver to do 4d8^23 damage. Damage can far exceed 1000 per round if you become a one-trick pony but even keeping some breadth you can break 1000 by lvl40.

I don't mind those sort of builds, other people can't stand them. Tastes differ, thing is they put a bullet in the concept only casters can keep up. Casters just focus on a different kind of boom that being flashier often gets more attention and causes people to ignore how swingy it can be in contrast to the reliable damage of non-casters.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

No. That would be the druid.

Followed by the cleric.

And the wizard never made the fighter useless in 3.x. Anyone who thinks that has never seen a competently designed fighter or compared him to a wizard who tries to deal damage. In Age of Worms our archer (with no prestige classes--BTW, just Ranger 2/Fighter 12) very reliably deals 90-120 points of damage per round to everything we face--and that's with decidedly suboptimal equipment choices (no boots of speed, for instance). Our wizard--with two or three prestige classes can only come close to that with a maxmized disintegrate... if the monster rolls a 1 on his saving throw. And that's been pretty typical of play at all levels in all the campaigns and in all of the rounds of Living Greyhawk or Living Arcanis I've judged, or played. Melee fighters are a little less reliable than archers but also dish out more single target damage than your typical wizard.

Wizards have a very definite place in the 3.x party, but the only times I've seen them hog the limelight is when they are played by a player who is simply far better at choosing his actions than the other players.

As to the last part, I haven't seen a real 4.0 wizard. Every time I look at the playtest characters, I have to remind myself that very very few of the 3.x delve or fastplay characters that I saw WotC pass out at cons even hinted at what could be done with their classes. And we haven't seen any ritual rules. But, if, as seems likely, the 4th edition wizard does the same xdy+prime stat modifier damage as everyone else as a standard action at [1/2 char level+prime stat bonus+implement/weapon] attack bonus just like everyone else--with maybe a push/pull or immobilization effect (again, like everyone else), then yes, I prefer the 3.x wizard warts and all.

Isn't the 3.X wizard considered the most powerful class? Isn't the wizard considered so powerful he rendered the fighter and rouge useless? Wasn't there people who believed that the wizard needed to be nerfed?

Now that wizards are getting nerfed, people are complaining that it's a bad thing? Did you perfer the 3.X wizard?

 

[Henry]

Do you Really think they are going to release a game where a xth level Wizard can't kill anything?

Who said anything about killing things? I'm talking about not getting killed.

I'll direct you to the Wizard's CharOp board where many builds make 1000 damage possible

While the Character Optimization forums there are useful, I really disagree that they're the standard of play. I've seen 20th level characters of any stripe do an average of 200 damage under most circumstances, and most of the CharOp builds I've seen are the real "statistical outlier" stuff. Heck, a maximized Disintegrate only tops 240. And I'd love to see the Book of Nine Swords thing that allows 4d8^23 damage, because my Crusader could really use that.

EDIT - having looked at more of the CharOp builds, I'm seeing characters CAPABLE of over 1000 damage, but usually using five or six splatbooks and sometimes rules interpretations to get there, with the average falling in the 200 damage range. I revised upward, remembering spells like meteor swarm and horrid wilting, but most of the characters I've seen actually played by players don't get into the stratosphere.

You must have a different monsters file, because most of the level 10-ish creatures I have in the .pdf taken from this website are dealing physical damage.

I'm not talking about the level 10 creatures, I'm talking about anywhere from level 5 to level 20; remember, powers are supposed to be useful at far wider ranges than spells would be now. So, I'm comparing Mirror Image to Resistance, the other level 10 spell in its bracket. Resistance prevents a definitive amount of damage round after round; the mirror image at most will apparently prevent damage from a few lower level creatures, or make a larger creature waste one or at most two blows. It jsut strikes me as waaay too weak for its level; maybe I'm missing it and only actually playing it shows its usefulness.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

While the Character Optimization forums there are useful, I really disagree that they're the standard of play. I've seen 20th level characters of any stripe do an average of 200 damage under most circumstances, and most of the CharOp builds I've seen are the real "statistical outlier" stuff. Heck, a maximized Disintegrate only tops 240. And I'd love to see the Book of Nine Swords thing that allows 4d8^23 damage, because my Crusader could really use that.

They aren't everybody's certainly but they're fairly standard at my table. I'd say on average I see about 300 at twenty increasing to about 500 by lvl35. 1000/round is the top end of the range before you hit the total cheese builds.

The Bo9S build is a one-trick pony using the tornado throw and a series of speed loopholes that few DMs will actually allow. But in the most twinked out version could theoretically throw an enemy into orbit. Even restricting it to fewer and less contentious options you can throw an enemy 11 miles at lvl 20. I'll need to root through my saved files and paste it for you.

 

[Incenjucar]

On the flavor of Displacement, remember that they like to recycle old names for new things.

4E Displacement, by the way it works, is more like a split-second partial shift that perhaps leaves an after-image behind. The wizard just may cause the character's image to stay in place for a half-second while they continue their normal movement.

That considered, it also showcases the wizard being -incredibly- quick-thinking.

 

[Deep Blue 9000]

It seems like they are nerfing most of a wizard's 3e utility powers but making them minor actions so you can use them while still throwing out firecubes with your standard action. Given how bland the wizard attack powers we've seen so far are, I can 't say I'm particularly happy with this change.

 

[Enkhidu]

...Pardon?

Hobgoblin Warcaster:"You runty kobold minions attack him first"

Minions "But all his defences are 25 or higher! We can't even touch him!"

Hobgoblin Warcaster "Ah, but your wild waving will frighten away his mirror images"

Minion 1 rolls 1 "miss"" (one image goes)
Minion 2 rolls 3 "miss!" (another image goes)
Minion 3 rolls 2 "miss!" (final image goes)

Hobgoblin Warcaster now attacks the measly defence 19 wizard whose protections have been stripped away by the baby kobold minions...

How is this much different than in 3e?


Hobgoblin Fighter:"You runty kobold minions attack him first"

Minions "But there are 4 of him! How do we know which one to hit?"

Hobgoblin Fighter "But your wild waving will frighten away his mirror images, so get poking, pansies!"

Minion 1 rolls, hits AC 16, but strikes an AC 10 image instead - one image goes
Minion 2 rolls, hits AC 11, but strikes an AC 10 image instead - another image goes
Minion 3 rolls, hits AC 9, and misses everything

Hobgoblin Fighter now attacks the AC 19 wizard with 1 image left (and a 50/50 shot to whack him), the rest being stripped away by the baby kobold minions...


Is the new version worse? Yes. Is it worse by leaps and bounds? Not until higher levels, when casters in 3e get a max of 8 images. The AC 10 image (adjusted only for size, not dex or anything else) is an equalizer.