Displacement - a bit wussy eh? Mirror image too...

[Ridley's Cohort]

The flavor of displacement bothers me more than anything else. It isn't that your buddy was actually displaced, its that you made the attack miss in some way that doesn't make sense. Retroactivity is weird, unless some sort of time magic is involved... which this clearly isn't.

The abstract mechanics only need emulate notable results in a manner that approximately as effective overall while minimizing overhead.

For all we know, the PCs perceive Displacement to be running all the time, but they only feel certain it had a decisive effect every once in a while.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

It seems like they are nerfing most of a wizard's 3e utility powers but making them minor actions so you can use them while still throwing out firecubes with your standard action. Given how bland the wizard attack powers we've seen so far are, I can 't say I'm particularly happy with this change.

It was a balance problem is 1e/2e/3e for a defensive spell to both be plausibly be worth an Action after the initiative is rolled while yet not be overwhelming if a couple were stacked up pre-combat.

I believe the 4e model is the spirit of making two completely independent decision points for the Wizard in combat: (1) Which cool offensive power do I use now? (2) Which minor utility ability do I use now?

One might choose to look at that as having 2 Actions instead of 1, which is generally more fun, even if the second of the Actions is weaker than the other.

 

[Cadfan]

The attacker swings. You perceive that your ally will be struck, and create a displacing image that makes it hard for the enemy to strike. Tadaa.

Look, if this is going to be a problem, every reroll ability is going to be a problem. No one seems to think that Elvish Accuracy means you shoot an arrow, miss your target, rewind time complete with a backwards traveling arrow returning to your quiver and a shpshpshpshp noise, and try again. No one thinks a halfling using his luck power pulls an orc's ax out of his own skull, hands it back to the orc, and asks for a do-over.

 

[Ahglock]

No. That would be the druid.

Followed by the cleric.

And the wizard never made the fighter useless in 3.x. Anyone who thinks that has never seen a competently designed fighter or compared him to a wizard who tries to deal damage. In Age of Worms our archer (with no prestige classes--BTW, just Ranger 2/Fighter 12) very reliably deals 90-120 points of damage per round to everything we face--and that's with decidedly suboptimal equipment choices (no boots of speed, for instance). Our wizard--with two or three prestige classes can only come close to that with a maxmized disintegrate... if the monster rolls a 1 on his saving throw. And that's been pretty typical of play at all levels in all the campaigns and in all of the rounds of Living Greyhawk or Living Arcanis I've judged, or played. Melee fighters are a little less reliable than archers but also dish out more single target damage than your typical wizard.

Wizards have a very definite place in the 3.x party, but the only times I've seen them hog the limelight is when they are played by a player who is simply far better at choosing his actions than the other players.

As to the last part, I haven't seen a real 4.0 wizard. Every time I look at the playtest characters, I have to remind myself that very very few of the 3.x delve or fastplay characters that I saw WotC pass out at cons even hinted at what could be done with their classes. And we haven't seen any ritual rules. But, if, as seems likely, the 4th edition wizard does the same xdy+prime stat modifier damage as everyone else as a standard action at [1/2 char level+prime stat bonus+implement/weapon] attack bonus just like everyone else--with maybe a push/pull or immobilization effect (again, like everyone else), then yes, I prefer the 3.x wizard warts and all.

This has been my experience as well. I generally don't want to say anything since so many people state the wizard is overpowered as fact, and it just seems like arguing the point is a way to just start a fight. But yeah in my experience the fighter dishes out way more damage than the wizard and is only out shined by the wizard when the wizard is just flat out run better.

 

[Ahglock]

It was a balance problem is 1e/2e/3e for a defensive spell to both be plausibly be worth an Action after the initiative is rolled while yet not be overwhelming if a couple were stacked up pre-combat.

I believe the 4e model is the spirit of making two completely independent decision points for the Wizard in combat: (1) Which cool offensive power do I use now? (2) Which minor utility ability do I use now?

One might choose to look at that as having 2 Actions instead of 1, which is generally more fun, even if the second of the Actions is weaker than the other.

This is a interesting point but its also something we never saw. Some buffs were done pre-fight in the sense that they lasted long enough that you'd put them up almost for your adventuring period. The short powerful buffs/defenses rarely saw use before a fight because spell casting is fairly loud and this just announced your presence, spoiling an ambush, or maybe making it so you got ambushed. Post teleport in rare circumstances they'd drop a few and teleport in, but since in my campaign world teleport defenses are common, if you could pull this off, chances are it was an easy wind/mook encounter anyways.

Still if this issue was common enough I guess this system would solve the issue. Though with durations being tied to being while the fight music is going, can you pre-buff in 4e? I'm not being snarky, I'm just asking if you cast buff/defense of justice that lasts an encounter pre-fight what happens? Do we know yet and I missed or forgot it.

 

[UltimaRatio]

I must disagree with the view that the wizard was not the most powerful character at high levels of play in 3.5. A single one is capable of handling an entire party by himself, core.

Foresight up so you can never be caught by surprise, thus forcing a normal initiative check. Contingency up for Teleport Without Error to a safe locale in case you lose initiative. Why risk it?
Upon taking your turn, Metamagic Rod'd Maximized Time Stop. In those 5 rounds, cast two Gates for two Celestial Great Wyrm Gold Dragons (with an Ioun Stone making your CL 21), cast Telepathic Bond so you can command them, Quickened Invisibility and Fly, then Teleport Without Error to a safe observation point nearby. Time Stop ends, they have no idea where you went, and they have to deal with two annoyed CR 29 monsters who each cast spells as a 19th level Sorcerer.

This is ignoring the truly ridiculous things one can do with the class, which only gets more insane as you add more splats. And there's usually a whole party backing him up.

EDIT: I see now that a lot of people are focusing on damage as the relevant metric. I don't know - I've never tried to optimize a wizard for damage. That's not its thing. Its thing is handling whatever's thrown at it with minimal risk, through proper planning and resource management. Damage is fun, but in 3.5e dealing damage yourself involved so much risk it was usually superior not to bother.

 

[Ahglock]

The attacker swings. You perceive that your ally will be struck, and create a displacing image that makes it hard for the enemy to strike. Tadaa.

Look, if this is going to be a problem, every reroll ability is going to be a problem. No one seems to think that Elvish Accuracy means you shoot an arrow, miss your target, rewind time complete with a backwards traveling arrow returning to your quiver and a shpshpshpshp noise, and try again. No one thinks a halfling using his luck power pulls an orc's ax out of his own skull, hands it back to the orc, and asks for a do-over.

Eh they totally have a different feel to me. In both the other cases its just saying you can have two shots at things either hitting or getting missed. Self done inherent re-rolls don't have the feel that the event occurred and you are fixing it, just that the even turned out better than initially expected. When it is a spell you are actively casting it and then the effect occurs, which happens before the hit occurs, even though you decided to cast it afterwards. Thematically they totally have a different feel to me.

I would not mind displacement if it was a per encounter power that lasted an encounter or until used which ever came first, and during the encounter you had minor precognitive abilities about blows that would take place to you and your allies. Then the use after the fact actually pays off because you saw the blow before it actually hit and activated the displacement effect.

Its not too hard to visualize you just seeing your friend or self in trouble and casting an instant spell in the nick of time. It just seems off fro the description. I'd probably require a perception check to notice the blow in advance so you could get the spell off in time though since this spells seems kind of weak I don't think it needs another nerf.

 

[Kishin]

You're seeing a symptom of why I wouldn't touch 4E with a 10-foot pole.

The spells in 3E took up, what, half the PHB? And those spells have been refined and playtested over literally 30+ years. You can pick out lots of specific language that was copy-and-pasted from 1E all the way through to 3E, with desired refinements.

I'm sorry, but just because some are 30+ years old doesn't mean they are anywhere near fine. Mirror Image has been overpowered since 2nd edition, at the very -least-. Broken sacred cows need to be made into sacred hamburger more than any other. As an example, I personally breathed a sigh of tremendous relief at what was done to Stoneskin after 2E.

This has been my experience as well. I generally don't want to say anything since so many people state the wizard is overpowered as fact, and it just seems like arguing the point is a way to just start a fight. But yeah in my experience the fighter dishes out way more damage than the wizard and is only out shined by the wizard when the wizard is just flat out run better.

Caster overpoweredness has comparatively little to do with the maximum damage output. Blasting is not how the job gets done at higher levels. Thinking in terms of pure HP reduction output is a very limited and frankly flawed perspective.

 

[small pumpkin man]

This is a interesting point but its also something we never saw. Some buffs were done pre-fight in the sense that they lasted long enough that you'd put them up almost for your adventuring period. The short powerful buffs/defenses rarely saw use before a fight because spell casting is fairly loud and this just announced your presence, spoiling an ambush, or maybe making it so you got ambushed. Post teleport in rare circumstances they'd drop a few and teleport in, but since in my campaign world teleport defenses are common, if you could pull this off, chances are it was an easy wind/mook encounter anyways.

Still if this issue was common enough I guess this system would solve the issue. Though with durations being tied to being while the fight music is going, can you pre-buff in 4e? I'm not being snarky, I'm just asking if you cast buff/defense of justice that lasts an encounter pre-fight what happens? Do we know yet and I missed or forgot it.

Notice how they all say "untill the end of the encounter or five minutes"? yeah, that.

 

[Ahglock]

I must disagree with the view that the wizard was not the most powerful character at high levels of play in 3.5. A single one is capable of handling an entire party by himself, core.

Foresight up so you can never be caught by surprise, thus forcing a normal initiative check. Contingency up for Teleport Without Error to a safe locale in case you lose initiative. Why risk it?
Upon taking your turn, Metamagic Rod'd Maximized Time Stop. In those 5 rounds, cast two Gates for two Celestial Great Wyrm Gold Dragons (with an Ioun Stone making your CL 21), cast Telepathic Bond so you can command them, Quickened Invisibility and Fly, then Teleport Without Error to a safe observation point nearby. Time Stop ends, they have no idea where you went, and they have to deal with two annoyed CR 29 monsters who each cast spells as a 19th level Sorcerer.

This is ignoring the truly ridiculous things one can do with the class, which only gets more insane as you add more splats. And there's usually a whole party backing him up.

EDIT: I see now that a lot of people are focusing on damage as the relevant metric. I don't know - I've never tried to optimize a wizard for damage. That's not its thing. Its thing is handling whatever's thrown at it with minimal risk, through proper planning and resource management. Damage is fun, but in 3.5e dealing damage yourself involved so much risk it was usually superior not to bother.

Yes 9th level spells are totally broken, luckily I don't start my game at level 17. So I see levels 1-10 where the wizard is actually sub-par, level s 11-14ish where he is average, 14-16 where is above average and 17+ where he is ridiculous.