Displacement - a bit wussy eh? Mirror image too...

[Ahglock]

Notice how they all say "untill the end of the encounter or five minutes"? yeah, that.

Don't know why, but I've been reading that as which ever is shorter not whichever ever is longer. Now that you point it out though, um duh.

 

[hong]

Eh they totally have a different feel to me. In both the other cases its just saying you can have two shots at things either hitting or getting missed. Self done inherent re-rolls don't have the feel that the event occurred and you are fixing it, just that the even turned out better than initially expected. When it is a spell you are actively casting it and then the effect occurs, which happens before the hit occurs, even though you decided to cast it afterwards. Thematically they totally have a different feel to me.

Probability is probability. Trust me, I'm a statistician.

 

[UltimaRatio]

Yes 9th level spells are totally broken, luckily I don't start my game at level 17. So I see levels 1-10 where the wizard is actually sub-par, level s 11-14ish where he is average, 14-16 where is above average and 17+ where he is ridiculous.

Well, I was responding to allegations that either meleeists, druids, or clerics dominate high-level play. Such allegations are patently false. Clerics are probably a fairly close number two, but Wizards still win because they have the largest number of "get out of jail free" cards to play.

 

[Ahglock]

Caster overpoweredness has comparatively little to do with the maximum damage output. Blasting is not how the job gets done at higher levels. Thinking in terms of pure HP reduction output is a very limited and frankly flawed perspective.

Well since that is hardly the entire list of my criteria and merely an example whoopedy. As I said the wizard was not overpowered in my games. He was balanced. I'm sorry if your games did not work out that way, but that doesn't make caster overpowerdness a fact, just a game style you played with.

 

[frankthedm]

I think he perhaps meant the versatility of the wizards utility spells. From what I've seen the 4E wizard seems like a potent version of the 3.5 Warmage, a definite nerf compared to the 3.x Wizard. Without seeing rituals it may be unfair to make this assessment.

No. Your assessment is spot on. This was a willful and deliberate design choice. Casters will NOT have a swiss army kit of spells that lets them do everything better than melee classes.

 

[Ahglock]

Well, I was responding to allegations that either meleeists, druids, or clerics dominate high-level play. Such allegations are patently false. Clerics are probably a fairly close number two, but Wizards still win because they have the largest number of "get out of jail free" cards to play.

I guess it depends on what you consider high level play. I think 10+ is high level and for much of that I don't find the wizard overpowered, at the very end of high level play 17-20 I do. I can't say anything about 20+ because I don't play it in 3e and never have had a desire to. So these level 40 comparisons I'll just stay out of if that is what is considered "high level.."

I've seen plenty of hypothetical wizards with cool tricks that seem to make them overpowered, but it never seems to work out that way in game play for us.

 

[Iron Sky]

In my 3-3.5 games, we've only ever had a Wizard live long enough to reach 4-5th level spells once(my current game), but even seeing him at level 10, he's the win button, even allowing only 3 core + PHB II in my games.

Ambush on 12 lvl 5 NPCs(Fighters + 2 Clerics + Sorcerer) = 3/4 dead in the first round, last few with <10 hp. 12 headed cryo-hydra = phantasmal killer insta-death. Enemy wizard = 1 int and cha on 2nd round. The power-gamed 10th level archer can get 75 damage(not counting crits) a round on a single target while the wizard can get 60 damage on each of 20 or do one of his insta-kill/insta-nerf spells.

My game is dangerous enough that the players are glad to have his firepower, but from time to time he so dominates the battle that everyone else kinda gets this "well, I guess I'll attack or something" attitude after watching him insta-kill the boss or vaporize 15 flunkies at once...

This is the same player whose druid + druid cohort + animal companions(known as the "Feral Four") kinda ended our last game, but it just shows me how scary a 3.5 wizard can be in competant hands.

 

[Kishin]

Well since that is hardly the entire list of my criteria and merely an example whoopedy. As I said the wizard was not overpowered in my games. He was balanced. I'm sorry if your games did not work out that way, but that doesn't make caster overpowerdness a fact, just a game style you played with.

I'm pretty sure said overpoweredness is the majority opinion, given even the developers openly admitted to/agreed with it in Races & Classes. If not the majority, its certainly suppoted by people with a very thorough understanding of system mechanics.

He was likely 'balanced' in your games by being played in a suboptimal manner.

I've never seen a Fighter one round a BBEG. I have seen a Wizard do it.

 

[DevoutlyApathetic]

On the flavor of Displacement, remember that they like to recycle old names for new things.

4E Displacement, by the way it works, is more like a split-second partial shift that perhaps leaves an after-image behind. The wizard just may cause the character's image to stay in place for a half-second while they continue their normal movement.

That considered, it also showcases the wizard being -incredibly- quick-thinking.

Grrr...you just sold me on Displacement or at least gave me enough to sell myself.

We're all assuming that Displacement is the classic illusion we all know and love, what if it isn't? What if it really does shift the target just slightly in reaction to the attack? This could still easily be described as "Displacement" but doesn't have the rewriting reality issue.

On the whole I think people are jumping to some big conclusions about power levels. Given that Displacement is free in the action economy I have no real issue with this power.

Mirror Image still needs a big rewrite IMO just for some of the unintended consequences.

 

[neceros]

Effect: three duplicate images of yourself appear in your space, and you gain a +6 power bonus to AC. Each time an attack misses you, one of your duplicate images disappears and the bonus granted by this power decreases by 2.

Pardon?

Hobgoblin Warcaster:"You runty kobold minions attack him first"

Minions "But all his defences are 25 or higher! We can't even touch him!"

Hobgoblin Warcaster "Ah, but your wild waving will frighten away his mirror images"

Minion 1 rolls 1 "miss"" (one image goes)
Minion 2 rolls 3 "miss!" (another image goes)
Minion 3 rolls 2 "miss!" (final image goes)

Hobgoblin Warcaster now attacks the measly defence 19 wizard whose protections have been stripped away by the baby kobold minions...

????

The spell gives you AC to simulate the fact that your enemies will be hitting your clones. Thus, if they attack and miss, due to the increased AC, they are instead hitting an image. IF they hit, then they actually found the real one.

Backwards, I know, but it works mechanically.