D&D 5E Dissapointed with Attunement

[I'm A Banana]

Actually Kamakazi, when you take a complex situation with many solutions and try and slot it down to "You can have either Option A or Option B there are NO OTHER CHOICES" that would be the classic example of the Logical Fallacy "Black and White," aka False Dichotomy

It strikes me that you perhaps don't fully understand quite what you're suggesting when you say this:

How about products purchased from WotC just work in the first place? I know this idea is rather new to some players, but for those of us who played 4E and liked it, it's become an experience we're not going to give up.

if you think there's a third option.

In order to design every adventure so that it "just works" a publisher would have to do two things. The first would be to impose one monolithic design dictum on every adventure, so that every adventure had the same default assumptions. The second would be to impose that same dictum on every player's table, so that the publisher can assume that the adventure would "just work."

Anything less than that, and you will have modules that never "just work."

For instance, if you have a game with multiple campaign settings, you can't have adventures that "just work." What works in the Forgotten Realms doesn't work the same in Dark Sun. Even if you just chose one setting, you'd also have to assume that all Dark Sun games, for instance, use the same rules: a published adventure wherein Kalak is alive doesn't "just work" for those playing after his demise.

So, you see, by suggesting that all adventures WotC makes "just work," you're also suggesting that all people play under the same rules. That may not be your intention, but it is a logical consequence of your demand. If all WotC products "Just Work," then all players must cleave to one set of rules devised by WotC.

Thus, you cannot have a diversity of game environments, and have all products "just work." If you have people playing under different rulesets, DM judgement and adjustment will be involved in everything you add to the game.

The default assumptions of the game should be designed in such a way that a Dungeon Master who has never DMed before and is not an experienced player will be able to take the default assumptions and create a campaign that does not accidentally break.

Another adjustment of the goalposts? Sure. Though I must confess I'm getting a bit dizzy.

Magic items aren't in the default assumptions game. They're an add-on you can opt-into on a case-by-case basis.

Done. Mission accomplished. Status of attunement as a balancing mechanism: UNNECESSARY.

Lets hug it out, bro.

 

[GreyICE]

Kamikaze, if you bothered to take the time to read and understand what I was saying, you'd find that the goalposts have remained in the same spot.

You keep changing your strawmen. That'd be your problem.

I'm going to quote again, since apparently you missed it:

Deleted for being overzised, overcolored, and overrude. Get a grip. And don't insult people. - Lwaxy

I upped the size and changed the color since apparently it was still easy to miss.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I still missed the part where a rough baseline of "ZERO" isn't acceptable for the magic items? For some reason?

Also, I'm missing the part where you talk about attunement, and WotC adventures "just working," but I am 300 years old and in sore need of spectacles.

 

[GreyICE]

I still missed the part where a rough baseline of "ZERO" isn't acceptable for the magic items? For some reason?

You did indeed. Let me quote myself again.

Also this discussion might go more smoothly if you didn't skim my posts.

Kamakaze, do you seriously believe that the average table with the average group of players playing D&D will have no magic items? Are you serious? Can this be an actual opinion?

Never in D&D's history has that happened. And I'm starting this with Gygax. Magic items were core parts of the very first bits of D&D ever run. And you think this will suddenly become the default?

No. Way. New DMs are going to have magic items. Their players want them. They sound cool. And they get out of hand so very easily

You estimated that hundreds of groups have played at least one campaign without magic items, or (by my estimate) roughly 0.1% of D&D campaigns have run without magic items since Gygax and Arneson first released the system.

Do you stand by your estimate?

 

[I'm A Banana]

You did indeed. Let me quote myself again.

Only...that wasn't from your bit above in all the fancy mod-like colors?

Kamakaze, do you seriously believe that the average table with the average group of players playing D&D will have no magic items?

Oh, you just missed my responses. To make it a bit clearer:

First: "Average" and "Default" have different meanings.

Second: A "Default" of no magic items is reasonable, because that is what the rules will tell people to do. If the rules say: "Magic items are something extra you can add into your game if you want," the default will be no magic items, with people opting into them if they want.

Third: An "Average" of some magic items is reasonable, because plenty of people want them. If magic items are optional, this means that at an "Average" table we will have DMs who take on something extra they want to add onto their games.

Fourth: This is a good thing, because it empowers DMs to make choices about their own games, making their own tables better for it, and thus not really needing WotC to lay down any secondary rules about what is "balanced" with respect to optional, opt-in systems.

End Result: D&D doesn't assume magic items as a default. Many people will add them, and those people will be empowered to make decisions about their own games, rather than reliant on external controls. This will make them better DMs, thus making the average pool of DMs likely to be better in this respect. Thus, a quantity limit on magic items for balance purposes isn't necessary.

Also this discussion might go more smoothly if you didn't skim my posts.

It might help if you compliment me about how awesome I am more honestly, and more often. I may be 300 years old and blind, but that doesn't mean I can't be flattered.

 

[GreyICE]

Only...that wasn't from your bit above in all the fancy mod-like colors?

Are you serious?

If I tried to include every point I have ever made in every forum post I make they'd all be ridiculous dictionaries.

That point was clearly responding to your False Dichotomy that you were misrepresenting my argument into.

(And if the reference to mod colors is supposed to reinforce the fact you're a moderator, I'm aware. That doesn't automatically make you right about anything at all)

Oh, you just missed my responses. To make it a bit clearer:

First: "Average" and "Default" have different meanings.

Second: A "Default" of no magic items is reasonable, because that is what the rules will tell people to do. If the rules say: "Magic items are something extra you can add into your game if you want," the default will be no magic items, with people opting into them if they want.

Third: An "Average" of some magic items is reasonable, because plenty of people want them. If magic items are optional, this means that at an "Average" table we will have DMs who take on something extra they want to add onto their games.

Fourth: This is a good thing, because it empowers DMs to make choices about their own games, making their own tables better for it, and thus not really needing WotC to lay down any secondary rules about what is "balanced" with respect to optional, opt-in systems.

End Result: D&D doesn't assume magic items as a default. Many people will add them, and those people will be empowered to make decisions about their own games, rather than reliant on external controls. This will make them better DMs, thus making the average pool of DMs likely to be better in this respect. Thus, a quantity limit on magic items for balance purposes isn't necessary.

First of all, and this is something that I realize may have gone unstated:

The default assumptions Wizards of the Coast makes about what a table will look like and do should be based on feedback from a wide variety of DMs of all experience levels on what they actually do.


I do not accept a "default" that is rarely used as a valid design choice. To me this would be the same as designing your settings and material with the default assumption that the entire party is elven, or the default assumption that the entire party is female, or the default assumption that the DM will include only Undead enemies.

If D&D Next were designed with any of these assumptions I would have to call that design flawed. Parties will contain more than elves, all female parties will probably be quite rare, and DMs will continue to include non-undead enemies. Certainly in some small number of campaigns one or more of these assumptions might be true, but to design the game around those assumptions seems the height of terrible design.

To the same degree, I submit that between 99% and 99.9% of all campaigns of Dungeons and Dragons that have been run have included Magical Items in some form or another.

The default assumption should be the one that most closely matches what your average DM would do, and it should be designed so that new DMs who emulate the average DM will not go far astray.

Perhaps this was so fundamental that I assumed no one would disagree with it. To that I apologize, it appears that I can continue to be amazed at the wide variety of opinions people will choose to hold.

 

[Blackbrrd]

Can you stop posting in giant stupid colored letters? It makes me want to report you even though I am mostly agreeing with your point of view. I haven't read what you wrote for the last few pages because you and kamikaze are writing the same stuff over and over again. Just face it you aren't ever going to agree on a thing. I really suggest that this thread be locked for further input before somebody else gets it into their head to join the discussion.

If you both want to keep the discussion going somewhere, please include where you think you are in agreement too, not just where you disagree.

 

[I'm A Banana]

(And if the reference to mod colors is supposed to reinforce the fact you're a moderator, I'm aware. That doesn't automatically make you right about anything at all)

It's actually in reference to the fact that it's pretty taboo to use those colors in your post if you're not actually speaking as a mod, because that can create some confusion. You might not've been aware, though. So I'm going to ask you kindly to stop doing that with the colors. Ideally, you should go back and edit your posts to remove the colors, too.

Now that that's out of the way...

I do not accept a "default" that is rarely used as a valid design choice. To me this would be the same as designing your settings and material with the default assumption that the entire party is elven, or the default assumption that the entire party is female, or the default assumption that the DM will include only Undead enemies.

Then you're missing the nuance between "Default" and "Average," and the space that recognizing that difference opens up.

If you're just providing a pre-packaged product, it can be useful to assume that the "average" and the "default" are the same thing. But D&D isn't in the business of delivering a generic prepackaged product. D&D has always been tremendously local and personal. It's always been a DM-controlled experience.

Toy Analogy Time: D&D has been in the business of selling LEGOs, not selling plastic castles.

Car Analogy Time: D&D has been in the business of selling car parts, not selling new automobiles.

Food Analogy Time: D&D has been in the business of selling recipes and ingredients, not selling prepared food.

Computer Analogy Time: D&D has been in the business of selling processors, not building you a Macbook.

That's a valuable distinction, and it changes the value of "default." You can't do anything really with those "defaults" by themselves. You need to assemble them into a useful form. Indeed, the assembly is part of the fun.

For D&D to try to be a pre-packaged product would be a tremendous mistake, IMO, because that's not what it is, and that doesn't play to its unique strengths as a game, or as a brand.

So when you say that "default" and "average" should be the same thing, that seems remarkably foolhardy to me, for D&D. D&D has never been a game you just play. It's always been a game you make with your friends.

 

[JamesonCourage]

It's actually in reference to the fact that it's pretty taboo to use those colors in your post if you're not actually speaking as a mod, because that can create some confusion. You might not've been aware, though. So I'm going to ask you kindly to stop doing that with the colors. Ideally, you should go back and edit your posts to remove the colors, too.

Now that that's out of the way...

This may want to be in a light mod color, too. Something like yellow, maybe? That way we know it's not a suggestion from a fellow poster, but as a mod. I'd much prefer that people avoided mod colors when posting (it doesn't happen often, but when it does, even in sigs, it slows me down).

Side note: I agree with most of what you're saying in this thread, but can't XP you. So, at least know that someone is reading and agreeing. As always, play what you like

 

[Blackbrrd]

So when you say that "default" and "average" should be the same thing, that seems remarkably foolhardy to me, for D&D. D&D has never been a game you just play. It's always been a game you make with your friends.

To me it's completely logical to make the default hit has broad an audience as you can get. The broadest audience uses magic items, so that gets to be the default, like in all other editions of DnD.

Computer Analogy Time: D&D has been in the business of selling processors, not building you a Macbook.

Now I really don't agree with you here. D&D have been in the business of selling computer platforms like Centrino and Ultrabooks, not just about making processors.

Why? Because if you don't have an eco system your customers are familiar with, it gets much harder to market and sell your product. You know you will get your wireless connection if you buy a Centrino laptop. You know if you buy an Ultrabook it will have a battery that lasts for 5 hours and that it will be thin and light. If you don't have defaults like this you end up with competitors like Pathfinder that takes big chunks of your marketshare.

I really don't understand why you want 5e to be the first edition of DnD that has an option to include magic items instead of having it as a default. Sure it makes it easier for the people who want to run it that way, but it makes it harder for the large majority. To me that's not the way to do business.