D&D 5E Ditching concentration - did you do it?

[Tony Vargas]

Really? I am not saying that people really are avoiding those spells (because I don't know, but overall I don't think it's the case... losing concentration is annoying but I don't think people avoid concentration spells entirely) but if they really did, it's not an astounding success but an astounding crap of wasted design effort... if they really wanted to limit those spells to the point that nobody uses them, then they should have not have those spells at all.

Ah, but said spells are iconic, so they just absolutely must appear in the PH...

Seriously, though, Concentration is a meaningful limitation. Spells with concentration feel limited. That's the point. Haste, for instance, has been a powerful, even problematic spell at times, concentration serves to limit it without actually taking away that power. Sure, there are other spells that hardly seem to 'deserve' such a limit, but not being able to use /them/ and the spell that actually deserves the limit at the same time is still a limitation on both...

 

[slaughterj]

Haste, for instance, has been a powerful, even problematic spell at times, concentration serves to limit it without actually taking away that power.

Haste was especially screwed by this edition, it only affects 1 target and is concentration. I get not wanting to have PCs sitting around casting it repeatedly (thus concentration), and I get not wanting to have a bunch of PCs affected by it (thus 1 target), but the combination of the two, along with limitations like only 1 melee attack with the extra action, are so severe as to make it rarely taken and used. It would have been fine as concentration and up to 3 targets.

 

[Falling Icicle]

But the other issue, about the chance of disrupting a spell by attacking the caster, I don't think this adds anything interesting to the game. It's a complication, because some spells can be disrupted while others cannot. This probably didn't complicate nor simplify the design, but at the gaming table is one more thing to keep in mind. In addition, there is no reason why "spells that must not be simultanously active" should always be also "spells that can be disrupted", but this is a byproduct of having concentration cover both.

I think it's intentional that these spells can be disrupted. IMO, it's an important part of balancing certain spells. In past editions, if an enemy spellcaster dominated someone in your party, there wasn't anything the non-spellcasters in the party could do about it, short of killing the caster. Now, at least, fighters and other non-magical classes have a chance to "dispel" powerful effects like that by beating up the enemy spellcaster. This rule helps to give non-spellcasters a way of dealing with magical threats, which I think is a good thing.

It also introduces an element of risk to certain spells that were (IMO) overused and abused before. For example, I've noticed people being much more careful with the fly spell now. In 3e, we took that spell for granted. But now, there's some risk involved that keeps it from being used excessively.

And by the way, if it's really true that players are avoiding concentration spells because they think they are not worth the risk of losing them or don't want to bother to keep track of them, then it means the concentration rule is a failure.

I haven't noticed this in my games. If anything, the people I play with have taken too many concentration spells for their own good.

I would prefer those cases to rely on target's saving throw each round, so that the chance of ending the effect earlier doesn't depend on what your allies do (i.e. attack the caster), and how many they are.

I think its a good thing that nasty spells like hold person can be ended both ways. After all, not every player can have a great bonus in every save, and sometimes the dice are just out to get you. When that happens, at least your friends have a chance to break you free of the effect by attacking the caster.

 

[Huntsman57]

I think it's intentional that these spells can be disrupted. IMO, it's an important part of balancing certain spells.QUOTE]

TBH, some spells that require concentration, assumably for balancing purposes, truly boggle my mind. The spells that most readily come to mind are the old save or suck spells that not only are no longer save or suck, but they are of the same level they previously were, and now they require concentration. Hold Person, Confusion, and Flesh to Stone come readliy to mind. I can't fanthom why someone would pick any of these spells over other spells of the same spell level. Fly...who the hell is going to fly anymore during combat. That's a lawn dart impersonation just waiting to happen!

 

[MindxKiller]

I think it's intentional that these spells can be disrupted. IMO, it's an important part of balancing certain spells.QUOTE]

TBH, some spells that require concentration, assumably for balancing purposes, truly boggle my mind. The spells that most readily come to mind are the old save or suck spells that not only are no longer save or suck, but they are of the same level they previously were, and now they require concentration. Hold Person, Confusion, and Flesh to Stone come readliy to mind. I can't fanthom why someone would pick any of these spells over other spells of the same spell level. Fly...who the hell is going to fly anymore during combat. That's a lawn dart impersonation just waiting to happen!

What? Hold Person is INCREDIBLY powerful, it's so powerful I can't imagine anyone NOT taking it. Paralyzed is the 2nd best condition to inflict on foes, behind Unconcious, advantage to all attacks as well as all attacks within 5 feet of the target being automatic critical hits is INSANE. On top of that, the only time the enemy gets to make a save is at the END of their turn, so even if he makes the save right after, not only did all of your allies beat the hell out of the guy, you also wasted his turn. All of this on a 2nd level spell... If you're using wisdom targeting crowd controls against targets that have high wisdom, the problem isn't the spell, its you. The only way I can imagine someone not liking the spell is because they're comparing it to other edition spells instead of comparing it to 5e spells, the hold spells are among the top of the top when it comes to single target crowd control.

 

[ryan92084]

We keep the single concentration limit. Outside of big hits i don't call for a con save so it is largely for the player to remember/forget.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

1E didn't have any mechanic to stop casters from taking off in the base game from what I recollect.

This is exactly why I have the pet peeve that I do regarding folks bringing up how an old version of the game used to work; they "recollect" rather than actually check, and then they assume not only that their recollection is correct but that my statement that they are wrong about whatever they are talking about is me not remembering the correct thing and being wrong rather than me having checked and being correct.

1E casters couldn't leave melee and cast a spell in the same round because the only ways that characters of any kind could leave melee were to "fall back" which could be done by itself or combined with parrying, and didn't stop your opponent from following right along unless someone else was in melee stopping them from doing so, or to "flee" which let you move farther away but gave your opponent a rear attack against you - at least, that's what page 104 of this 1st edition Player's Handbook indicates to me - I guess I could be wrong because 1st edition was surprisingly full of situations where one source said one thing, and another said something entirely unrelated and different, and I haven't checked every single page of both the PHB and DMG to see if contradictory information is present on the topic.

 

[Huntsman57]

What? Hold Person is INCREDIBLY powerful, it's so powerful I can't imagine anyone NOT taking it. Paralyzed is the 2nd best condition to inflict on foes, behind Unconcious, advantage to all attacks as well as all attacks within 5 feet of the target being automatic critical hits is INSANE. On top of that, the only time the enemy gets to make a save is at the END of their turn, so even if he makes the save right after, not only did all of your allies beat the hell out of the guy, you also wasted his turn. All of this on a 2nd level spell... If you're using wisdom targeting crowd controls against targets that have high wisdom, the problem isn't the spell, its you. The only way I can imagine someone not liking the spell is because they're comparing it to other edition spells instead of comparing it to 5e spells, the hold spells are among the top of the top when it comes to single target crowd control.

To me there are so many defense and utility spells that I would much prefer over a spell that may or may not work in the first place, and then requires a renewed save each round, and you may lose if your concentration is broken. That's just adding insult to multiple injuries.

Naturally we aren't targeting something with a strong will save, but you're picking this spell hoping it's going to be useful, and in many cases the casting of this spell is just a waste of your action and your spell slot.

 

[MindxKiller]

To me there are so many defense and utility spells that I would much prefer over a spell that may or may not work in the first place, and then requires a renewed save each round, and you may lose if your concentration is broken. That's just adding insult to multiple injuries.

Naturally we aren't targeting something with a strong will save, but you're picking this spell hoping it's going to be useful, and in many cases the casting of this spell is just a waste of your action and your spell slot.

I suppose I just fundamentally disagree with you, even a single round of the paralyzed condition is still absolutely devastating when your rogue could sneak attack, paladin could smite, fighter could action surge, either of those (or possible all of them, depending on party composition) being full critical hits on EVERY attack that lands? That's basically a second level spell slot to give your rogue another use of the assassinate ability in a fight. Most humanoids are going to be affected for 2 turns on average, 2 turns of paralyzed is more than enough to kill off or essentially assure victory against just about any humanoid in the game. Sure, it sucks when they make the save as soon as you cast it, but that happens to just about any crowd control spell. Hold Person/Monster are highly underrated spells, and it seems as though everyone who rates it badly doesn't actually ever try it because they don't like the wording of "save at the end of each of their turns." And as the saying goes, the best defense is a good offense, and the best crowd control is death.

 

[Corpsetaker]

I ditched the "make CON save everytime you're hit" part. It didn't make sense to me - HP is supposed to be more than just meat, but getting physically hurt is the reason why you have to make Constitution saves to maintain a spell.

It makes perfect sense and no HP is not all meat but you should try keeping your attention on something while moving and dodging as well.