Ditching OA's, replace with....?

[I'm A Banana]

Anything?

A recent thread going over the specific lawyery verbiage for Opportunity Actions and Turns and Rounds and all that noise has gotten me to facepalm enough that I think it's time I explored this option as an easier solution.

So, if you were to remove OA's from the game, what would you fill the void with? What purpose do they serve? Are they just "realism," or is there a valid balance contained in them, and if so, how can you meet that balance without them?

Because I am done with the game screeching to a halt whenever someone "provokes." But I also do not want to bone defenders or undo strategies that might use OA's to a nice little effect.

So you tell me: OA's are deleted. What, if anything, do you do instead to still get the effects you want? Preferably something quick, easy, and ideally cinematic.

 

[mudlock]

What's are you having trouble with?

Every creature gets one opportunity action on each other creatures turn. They can use that opportunity action to make a melee basic attack against an enemy when that enemy attempts to exits a square they threaten (an "opportunity attack") unless that enemy shifts (or teleports) out of that square.

That is the sum total of the general rules for opportunity attacks; what are you "facepalming" over?

 

[Spatula]

What's are you having trouble with?

Every creature gets one opportunity action on each other creatures turn. They can use that opportunity action to make a melee basic attack against an enemy when that enemy attempts to exits a square they threaten (an "opportunity attack") unless that enemy shifts (or teleports) out of that square.

That is the sum total of the general rules for opportunity attacks; what are you "facepalming" over?

I'm not KM, but I am guessing that all of the (possibly conditional) add-ons that can applied to basic attacks (and add-ons that can be applied to just OAs, and add-ons that are applied on a hit or a miss) are an issue, as they will increase resolution time. And then there's powers that can be used in place of basic melee attacks or as opportunity attacks, which provide additional decision points for the players.

Not cinematic but simple: no moving through threatened squares without shifting/teleporting.

Slightly more complicated: you can do it, but take damage. Maybe 1/2 (max basic attack damage). Or you only take damage if the threatener is a melee combatant.

I don't think there's a simple, cinematic solution. Cinematic is going to require decisions and action resolution, right?

 

[FireLance]

Not cinematic but simple: no moving through threatened squares without shifting/teleporting.

Slightly more complicated: you can do it, but take damage. Maybe 1/2 (max basic attack damage). Or you only take damage if the threatener is a melee combatant.

I like this, but I would rather the generic rule be:
When you move through a threatened square without shifting, you take damage equal to the "threatener"'s Strength modifier. (If the threatener has some ability to make a melee basic attack with another ability score, he can use that ability score modifier instead.)

Against an opponent moving normally, fighters can either deal additional +1[W] damage (+2[W] at 21st level) or can prevent an opponent from moving through the square in the first place. Fighters cannot stop a shifting opponent from moving, but can still deal Strength modifier damage to an opponent that shifts through one of his threatened squares.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Every creature gets one opportunity action on each other creatures turn. They can use that opportunity action to make a melee basic attack against an enemy when that enemy attempts to exits a square they threaten (an "opportunity attack") unless that enemy shifts (or teleports) out of that square.

That is the sum total of the general rules for opportunity attacks; what are you "facepalming" over?

Spatula's on the right track. Nothin' better than an OA dogpile to get me to do a beer run, come back in 10 minutes when it's all sorted out. I also can't be really bothered to bone up on my order-of-operations algebra and jargon calculus every other week, so I need it to be fast and make sense right out the bat.

What do you think I'd loose if I just...ditched 'em? No OA's, ever, for any reason.

Perhaps work in a "mini-OA" back in the Fighter class (Combat Challenge: fighters can make an MBA as an Interrupt against a marked enemy once per round), to keep that iconic "NO YOU DON'T" vibe, but no one else gets to do anything like that.

What might happen?

 

[blalien]

What's are you having trouble with?

Every creature gets one opportunity action on each other creatures turn. They can use that opportunity action to make a melee basic attack against an enemy when that enemy attempts to exits a square they threaten (an "opportunity attack") unless that enemy shifts (or teleports) out of that square.

That is the sum total of the general rules for opportunity attacks; what are you "facepalming" over?

Also ranged attacks.

The D&D rules aren't that hard. You just need a good grasp of logic. All dogs are mammals vs all mammals are dogs and so forth. Having the Rules Compendium really helps.

 

[Grabuto138]

Spatula's on the right track. Nothin' better than an OA dogpile to get me to do a beer run, come back in 10 minutes when it's all sorted out. I also can't be really bothered to bone up on my order-of-operations algebra and jargon calculus every other week, so I need it to be fast and make sense right out the bat.

What do you think I'd loose if I just...ditched 'em? No OA's, ever, for any reason.

Perhaps work in a "mini-OA" back in the Fighter class (Combat Challenge: fighters can make an MBA as an Interrupt against a marked enemy once per round), to keep that iconic "NO YOU DON'T" vibe, but no one else gets to do anything like that.

What might happen?

I dunno... In my experience it is either an MBA, which is right there on the character sheet, or a defender who can exploit the OA. In this case they should be gently encouraged to learn their character or gently encouraged to play a different character.

If a player makes a character that maximizes OAs but does not bother to learn the character well enough to call out the action at a high rate of gitty-up that is a "soft problem" rather than a rules problem. The player should be a knight or a non-defender.

The rules for OAs are not complicated. The rules for a particular player who is optimized for OAs can be very complicated. So don't make that character. Have a friendly conversation after the game discussing how their concept is slowing things down a bit and maybe they could either put more effort into learning their character or otherwise play a twin strike ranger.

Edit: The twin strike ranger may not be the best example since he can maximize immediate interrupts with his enounters. But this is kind of the exception that proves the rule since a person player this sort of ranger either is, or should be, anticipating the opportunity to use the interrupts. Otherwise, he or she should change the encounter powers or the character.

 

[mudlock]

Spatula's on the right track. Nothin' better than an OA dogpile to get me to do a beer run, come back in 10 minutes when it's all sorted out.

Strange. I've never seen that sort of problem, ever.

And I played a fighter for 16 levels, in a party with two fighters.

 

[wlmartin]

Anything?

A recent thread going over the specific lawyery verbiage for Opportunity Actions and Turns and Rounds and all that noise has gotten me to facepalm enough that I think it's time I explored this option as an easier solution.

So, if you were to remove OA's from the game, what would you fill the void with? What purpose do they serve? Are they just "realism," or is there a valid balance contained in them, and if so, how can you meet that balance without them?

Because I am done with the game screeching to a halt whenever someone "provokes." But I also do not want to bone defenders or undo strategies that might use OA's to a nice little effect.

So you tell me: OA's are deleted. What, if anything, do you do instead to still get the effects you want? Preferably something quick, easy, and ideally cinematic.

Opportunity Actions do NOT need to be removed IMO
There is no need to - They are there for a reason, they are a counter balance to the PC and Monsters need to gain position over their opponent (as well as performing ranged acts without impunity)

If monsters could run around the field without worrying about OA - they would run in, hit you and run out... Thus you would have to do the same and it would be like some carnival version of The Hokey Cokey.

OAs make perfect sense and they force people to act tactically.. if you are going to move away do so but know you made be penalized for it.

I don't doubt this post has come from your frustrations using or dealing with OA but I don't have issue with it and when an OA is demanded AGAINST my character, I will call it from the DM as it is also quite exciting to have to defend yourself against enemies as well as fight them sometimes, especially when they are stopping you doing what you want.

Removing OAs is like removing Crits or removing utility powers - sure you could do it and it wouldnt break the game but it would severly unbalance it

 

[I'm A Banana]

*sigh*

First page in, and we're two useful posts and more than twice that telling me how wrong and stupid I am for my heresy against OA's.

Okay, I get it, I'm a dumb person who is stupid and dumb. Blah blah blah. Can we get past this initial revulsion to change now and get some solid look at the actual thing from a practical standpoint? Assume I am a rational and intelligent individual capable of making choices for myself about what makes my games good or bad.

Removing OAs is like removing Crits or removing utility powers - sure you could do it and it wouldnt break the game but it would severly unbalance it

Okay....how?

Monsters get to run around and do whatever they want. So do PC's. I would guess this would up flanking, which would make "striker-y" monsters who add damage with CA more powerful, and it would also do the same for rogues. But rogues get CA on a regular basis anyway, right?

So this might up some damage with a corner-case monster. Since I'm of the opinion that battles last too long in the first place, a little extra damage isn't going to turn me off....so, that's cool!

With all the running around, I would guess this also makes powers that immobilize, prone, grab, or slow even more valuable. The only way to stop or flank something might be to make it stop. On the other hand, shifts and forced movement become slightly less key. Difficult terrain and walls and things become more key, too, since those are the things that limit your movement.

When I look at defenders, I see Fighters relying a lot on OAs, but with the proposed fix of "Immediate Interrupt to do an MBA and, if hit, stop the action" for Combat Challenge, that gives them back a good chunk of their "stickiness" (and even enhances it a bit, since they can stop any action, not just movement).

I don't see any of these effects as particularly game-ruining...is there something I'm missing?