Divination Dilemma

[Dandu]

And I was hoping for more detail on Contact Outer Plane, like what questions would you ask to 'know everything'.

Have you ever played 20 questions?

I like these sorts of threads. Not this one, the ones in which some very clever people with too much time on their hands explain precisely how a wizard is undefeatable by any means.

I always feel like popping up at the end of the thread to say: "So let me get this straight. Your wizard has no family, friends or indeed any acquaintances at all, lest they be turned against him. His actual body is lying dormant in a private demiplane, he astrally projects everywhere, and so that he can always act in a surprise round he spends every moment of his existence shapechanged into a dire tortoise. Which, let's be clear, has no hands, not much in the way of binocular vision, and eats cactus. And that's his definition of winning?"

Headpiece filled with straw. Alas!

 

[Vegepygmy]

At any given moment, you can more or less guarantee that being able to see a livestream of a location will give you enough information to teleport to it.
All that is required is a clear, mental image to teleport.

That's not quite what the spell says, and different DMs (obviously) interpret the requirements differently. But that's not really the point. The point is, some of us don't experience the problem that others do; whether that's because we have a superior understanding of the RAW or whether that's because we don't allow the RAW to dictate how things will work in our games really doesn't matter--the fact remains that for us, the "problem" doesn't exist.

I think the core of the misunderstanding issue is that you haven't ever had a Wizard who knows how to break games on your hands.

And I think the core of the misunderstanding is that you don't know how to prevent wizards from breaking your games. (But I do.)

 

[Vegepygmy]

A resourceful wizard can nearly double the effectiveness of any spell.

That's a good thing, in my book. Those who disagree (as I have suggested before) enjoy a very different style of game than I do.

 

[Dandu]

And I think the core of the misunderstanding is that you don't know how to prevent wizards from breaking your games. (But I do.)

Pardon the double negative, but I think we should keep in mind that, just because you can fix it, doesn't mean it isn't broken or wasn't poorly designed.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

DC 20 Intelligence check to notice sensor.
Lead sheeting to prevent observation.

Anticipate teleportation
Forbiddance
Dimensional lock
Nondetection (nice +4CL if the target is the caster)
Mage’s private sanctum
Screen
Mind blank
Zone of respite
Foresight

Any number of contingent spells (“if anyone scries me then…” or “if anyone teleports to within 100 feet of me without my permission then…”)

BBEGs need countermeasures. And so do you.

 

[Greenfield]

I saw a reference to Moment of Prescience as a way to pretty much guarantee success on a Scry spell.

It doesn't work that way.

It lets you add your caster level to any attack roll you make, any Saving throw that *YOU* make, or any opposed skill or ability check. You can also apply the bonus to your own AC.

It's a powerful spell, one that can even be invoked in the middle of someone else's turn. But it only applies to opposed skill checks, not all skill checks. It applies to your saving throws, not you opponent's. It applies to opposed ability checks, but not to set-DC ability checks.

As an example, it will help with a Trip attempt or Bull Rush, but won't help you break down a door or pick a lock.

And it won't make an opponent fail their Will save v your Scry spell. It's not an opposed dice roll.

 

[billd91]

At any given moment, you can more or less guarantee that being able to see a livestream of a location will give you enough information to teleport to it.
All that is required is a clear, mental image to teleport.
You want to teleport to that field of grass, so you focus on the picture - how every blade is moving, how the BBEG's footprints leave the blades depressed, that patch of grass that is a little darker green than the rest. That particular glade, at that particular moment, is going to be unique in it's appearance, and if you can't garner enough information in 20 minutes of observing it, you aren't smart enough to be a wizard.

My reading of teleport suggests you need more than just a clear mental image of the surroundings. That gives you layout... but it doesn't necessarily give you location and you need a clear idea of both. Even 20 minutes of observing may not give you that. You don't even get to see any geographical landmarks unless he's standing right next to them either. You need more information.

Add to that the chance of being off destination. You need to have scried an area for an hour to gain Studied Carefully on the table. Greater scry will allow that, assuming the guy you're scrying isn't moving about in any significant way. For the regular scry spell, without multiple castings, you're pretty much looking at a Viewed Once level with a 25% chance of being off target or worse.

It is, as I see it, not the most reliable of methodologies for stomping a BBEG.

 

[Dandu]

Familiarity
“Very familiar” is a place where you have been very often and where you feel at home. “Studied carefully” is a place you know well, either because you can currently see it, you’ve been there often, or you have used other means (such as scrying) to study the place for at least one hour. “Seen casually” is a place that you have seen more than once but with which you are not very familiar. “Viewed once” is a place that you have seen once, possibly using magic.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

My 2 cents:

-Wizards are not gods.

-Wizards can be played as many-times-more-powerful than most other people.

-Knowledge is Power.

-There are a number of ways to acquire knowledge. A Bard with a high Sense Motive could acquire knowledge, a Rogue with a well played Move Silently, Hide, Open Lock, Search, Listen and Spot skills could acquire knowledge. Casters simply tend to acquire that knowledge at a safe distance and in a more leisurely manner.

-Ultimately, the DM controls how much knowledge any player acquires, regardless of method. A clever player can stack the plausibility of acquiring knowledge in their favor, but the DM has final say.

1.Big Question-If you were the DM of a game where the group did scry and die type things to defeat every foe, how would you award experience? Would the group get normal experience? Would you give them bonus XP for being 'so clever and smart'? Would you consider attacking and killing a CR20 foe in their sleep in one round a 'challenge' ? Does the planed 'sneak attack' count as a challenge to the characters? Would you count attacking a foe in their sleep and making the encounter 'much more easy then normal?

If I were Dming this, I'd award full EXP the first time. I'd say "congrats, very clever", and then we'd have an out of game discussion about how the playing field has changed, and they need to make preparations to prevent retaliation. The way me and mine play, Every book, every feat/class/build is possible and creativity is encouraged. However, the DM also has the right to add templates, classes and RAW variants onto monsters and enemies. Creativity goes both ways, and whatever the players can do, the DM can do better. If they use Scry & die tactics, word gets out, and bad guys get smarter.

2.If your group did do ,scry and die in your sleep, would you think it's fair to have foes do it to them? Would you have a 'fun' game where the unprepared characters (and players) got attacked by fully armed foes? Or would you just handwave that as 'not happening' as it's 'not fair and no fun'?

My goal is rarely to kill my players outright, but often to inconvenience them, and then see what they do about it. They'd be less likely to be Coup De Grace'd in their sleep, more likely to wake up nekkid tied to a tree covered in honey over an ants nest, etc.

And the original question still stands: what divination tells you 'all about a foe'?

I'm Going to assume by "All about a foe" you mean either observe what they have been doing for an extended period of time, know their thoughts and/or motivations so as to make an informed decision about what they may do or be capable of, be familiar with the gear, equipment, class or racial abilities they have on hand, or literally gain foresight into a future action so as to generate a different outcome. With those parameters in mind, I present the following divination spells:

Observe:
-Arcane Eye
-Chain of Eyes
-Clairudience/Clairvoyance
-Dreamsight
-Echo Skull
-Eye of Power
-Eye of Stone
-Flowsight
-Hindsight
-Identify Transgressor
-Implacable pursuer
-Legend Lore
-Listening Coin
-Locate Creature
-Locate Object
-Prying Eyes
-Share Husk
-Speak with Animals
-Speak with Plants
-Stone Tell
-Vision

Read minds:
-Absorb Mind
-Brain Spider
-Detect Attitude
-Detect Guilt
-Detect Heresy
-Discern Lies
-Detect Thoughts
-Probe Thoughts

Know Gear/Abilities:
-Analyze Dweomer
-Detect Magic
-Detect Poison
-Detect Bloodline
-Discern Shapechanger
-Identify
-Know Bloodline
-Know Greatest Enemy
-Know Opponent
-Know Protections
-Know Vulnerabilities
-Understand Object

Know Future:
-Choose Destiny
-Commune
-Divination
-Foresight
-Glimpse of Truth
-Omen of Peril

Know Opponent was the first spell that came to mind when reading this thread. Combine that with Know Protections and Know Vulnerabilities, than really expect to Win.
What level 3 spell might you use through an Eye of Power?
What might you do with a Detect Thoughts spell and a week to follow someone? How about Dreamsight? Probe Thoughts is simply just plain unfair.
The Eye of Stone spell is not blocked by a wall of dense material.
Aboleths beware of Flowsight!
What might you learn with the Hindsight spell in a person's home? How about using Speak with Animals to interview his housecat, and Speak with Plants on his daises, then Stone Tell on his living room wall?

Can you think of some creative applications of these and other spells that you could use to know information about a target? If you cannot, then do not play a Divination caster, enjoy something else.

 

[Greenfield]

I played in a game of "Mage: the Ascension" for a while, and encountered a rote (a "spell" by any other name) that let you listen to a statement and determine if it was true or not.

It didn't check if the speaker believed it was true, this compared the statement to reality itself.

I needed to find the entrance to a secret enemy base, and used this rote in a way that frustrated my DM horribly. I had a companion make general statements about the location.

"It's north of the statue."
"It's west of the statue."
"It's east of the Library."

Seven questions and we knew exactly where it was, having done exactly zero investigation. We set off no alarms, alerted no guards, spoke to no one who could later question our presence.

The ability to ask yes or no questions shouldn't be underestimated. Yes/no or true/false tests can, in a binary fashion, subdivide the world as a whole down to manageable size search areas pretty darn quick. Give me ten yes/no questions about a person's location in the world at large and I'll probably be able to tell you the city he's in.

Give me 10 more questions and I'll give you his street address. So don't discount the power of spells like Commune or Contact other Plane.