Divine Challenge: Switching targets means you don't have to engage?

[Stalker0]

I was rereading divine challenge and the language stopped me.

It says: On your turn, you must engage the target you challenged or challenge a different target.

To me that means you can switch your challenge back and forth between creatures and you don't have to actual engage that target. That's very useful with abilities like divine sanction.

I can sanction the guy I'm currently challenging, and then move the mark to another person...maintaining the power on both of them.

Am I reading it right?

 

[FireLance]

The next two lines of the same paragraph also say, "To engage the target, you must either attack it or end your turn adjacent to it. If none of these events occur by the end of your turn, the marked condition ends and you can't use divine challenge on your next turn."

So, on the first turn that you use divine challenge on a target, you must engage the target by the end of your turn or the challenge ends.

In subsequent turns, you may challenge another target, but once again, you must engage your new target by the end of your turn or the challenge ends.

 

[Belphanior]

While FireLance's interpretation makes sense, that's arguably not what's in the RAW.

The first sentence appears to provide a mutually exclusive choice: either you engage or you challenge somebody else. The second sentence clarifies what "engage" means, and the third sentence provides the consequences.

Due to the way it's written, the most RAW-compliant interpretation is that "challenge a different target" removes the "must engage" restriction for that round. Because you've met one of the two obligations, the consequences don't kick in.

An interpretation where both obligations must be met results in an ugly scenario: now you must both engage and challenge a different target on each turn. This is clearly not what's intended.



From a different perspective, we can also analyze the other elements of the power. Particularly the range; if you'd have to engage immediately on the same turn in which you challenged, there is no purpose in having it be a close burst 5. Paladins don't have enough or strong enough ranged attacks to engage a target from 5 squares away (particularly in just the PHB, where the Challenge originated). So if you de facto have to either be or end up in melee in the same turn in which you challenge, what's the point of that range?

It seems to me that you're supposed to be able to challenge a target 5 squares away and leave it at that. Since the range is not that great, both you and the monster can easily reach eachother on your respective next turns.

tl;dr version: I agree with Stalker0

 

[eamon]

The power's text applies separately to each instance of the powers usage (as always).

You must engage or challenge someone else each round:
(1) on the round you first challenged someone you cannot challenge someone else and must thus engage or suffer the consequences.
(2) on any subsequent round, if you choose not to challenge someone else, you must thus engage or suffer the consequences.
(3) on any subsequent round, if you choose to challenge someone else, the effect ends without side effect (but the new challenge still has an effect, and that challenge in turn requires you to engage or challenge someone else - see step 1).

 

[CapnZapp]

Agree with eamon.

There is no case where you feel pressurized to engage a monster but can "escape" that by engaging somebody else.

This is because you always engage in the same round you challenge. You can't challenge in round 1 and then be forced to engage in round 2 (and thus "escape" that by challenging somebody else).

So any time "challenge a different target" removes the "must engage" it ALSO kicks back in the "must engage" straight away, though this time at the new target. But the point is it was LAST round you had to engage the troublesome target, and that problem you have already solved, or you can't challenge anything at all THIS round.

Each time you get to challenge something, you have already fulfilled all conditions - either by engaging last round's challenge victim last round or by not challenging something last round - so there is nothing to escape, and there is no "bug"

PS. If you challenge from 5 squares away, but don't have a ranged power to engage with and don't want to move adjacent, then you simply fail. Even if you use only the PHB.

 

[Ketjak]

As an aside and I apologize for the threadjack, does the challenge end when the paladin falls unconscious? It does not seem so.

(paladin engages a challenged target, is subsequently knocked to zero or below, enemy makes an attack that does not include the paladin before the paladin's next turn)

 

[eamon]

As an aside and I apologize for the threadjack, does the challenge end when the paladin falls unconscious? It does not seem so.

(paladin engages a challenged target, is subsequently knocked to zero or below, enemy makes an attack that does not include the paladin before the paladin's next turn)

I use the house rule that marks end when the creature marking falls unconscious. I don't think there should be an incentive to bash on already fallen enemies, and for many marks, the in-game logic doesn't make sense once the marking guy falls.

But by RAW, there is no such limitation indeed.

 

[Belphanior]

The power's text applies separately to each instance of the powers usage (as always).

You must engage or challenge someone else each round:
(1) on the round you first challenged someone you cannot challenge someone else and must thus engage or suffer the consequences.
(2) on any subsequent round, if you choose not to challenge someone else, you must thus engage or suffer the consequences.
(3) on any subsequent round, if you choose to challenge someone else, the effect ends without side effect (but the new challenge still has an effect, and that challenge in turn requires you to engage or challenge someone else - see step 1).

Agreed on points 2 and 3, and the first half of 1. The "thus" you put in there, however, is not as clearly cut. It's the entire point of the thread whether or not it's true and sorry to say, but I don't see a lot of arguments to support your conclusion.

The power essentially says "on your turn you must do A or B." (where A = engage, and B = challenge somebody else)
Why do some people think that anybody who does B must also do A? Because I think it doesn't say that.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

EDIT - Hmm, not as easy as I thought

 

[Hypersmurf]

The power essentially says "on your turn you must do A or B." (where A = engage, and B = challenge somebody else)

Let's say I have three boxes full of pebbles, and a key.

The rules:

If a box is open at the end of a round, and I have not taken a pebble out of it that round, it will explode.

I can only close a box by removing the key and opening another box.

I can only open one box in any given round.

----

So I have a Box 1 open. In this round, I can either a/ remove a pebble, or b/ close Box 1 by opening Box 2. If I do neither, Box 1 will explode.

If I choose not to remove a pebble, and open Box 2, then Box 2 is set to be open at the end of the round. Unless I remove a pebble or open Box 3, Box 2 will explode... and since I've already opened a box this round, opening Box 3 isn't an option. I must remove a pebble from Box 2 if I don't want it to explode.

----

Now I'm a Paladin with three opponents, and I used Divine Challenge on opponent 1 earlier. We'll call this use of Divine Challenge C1.

The rules for C1 say that I must either engage opponent 1 before the end of the round, or challenge another opponent... or my Divine Challenge will cease to function.

If I choose not to engage opponent 1, I must therefore challenge opponent 2. We'll call this use of Divine Challenge C2.

Now that I've used the power, the rules for C2 say that I must either engage opponent 2 before the end of the round, or challenge another opponent... or my Divine Challenge will cease to function. And I can't challenge opponent 3, because I've already used Divine Challenge this round.

Therefore if I don't engage opponent 2, my Divine Challenge will cease to function. Not because I failed the conditions of C1 - I met those by challenging another opponent. Because I failed the conditions of C2.

-----

Consider a hypothetical power - Minor Action. Mark the target. If you do not say the target's name before the end of the round, take 1d6 damage.

I use a minor action to mark Fred, and I use a minor action to mark Bob. If I say "Fred", I won't take the 1d6 damage from that use of the power. But if I don't say "Bob", I'll still take 1d6 damage, even though I said "Fred", because the rules apply to the second use of the power as well.

Why do some people think that anybody who does B must also do A?

People don't.

They think that in response to the requirement of the first use of Divine Challenge, he must do A or B, and he chose one of them - B (challenge an opponent other than the target of the first use of Divine Challenge). Then, in response to the requirement of the second use of Divine Challenge, he must do A or B. But he can't choose B (challenge an opponent other than the target of the second use of Divine Challenge) this time, because of the restriction on the power of only choosing B once per round... which means that his only option in response to the requirement of the second use of Divine Challenge is A - engage the target of the second use of Divine Challenge.

-Hyp.