Divine Intervention Points (Replaceing Turn Undead)

[Jeph]

I've always thought that Turn Undead really was crap in campagins with few undead. So, I've come up with this (or, am comming up with, this off the top of my head).

A Cleric starts out with 1 Divine Intervention Point (DIP), and gains 1 every level. Paladins gain one every level, starting at level 3. When a Divine Intervention point is used, it never comes back. The idea is, a divine intervention point should only be used at a major climax in the the adventure, or in times of dire need. If a character uses a DIP frivolously, just tell them that nothing happens, or say the effect begins to manifest, but then cuts short.

Typically, clerics and paladins will have only 1 to 2 DIPs at a time. All of the uses for DIPs below assume that only 1 is used at a time. If more than one is used at a time, increase the original effect by half. So, if 3 DIPs are used, you get double effect. If 5 are used, you get tripple, etc. Using a DIP is always a free action, and can be used on any creature's turn. If you use more tahn 1 DIP in a round, they must all be for the same effect. A DIP can effect any creature that you can see.

You can use a DIP to . . .
- Replay the past 2 rounds of game time
- return an unconcious ally to your class levels in HP
- Return an ally deceased within the last (your class level) rounds to -1 HP (stabalized)
- Increase your effective caster level by 4 for one spell
- Make one skill, attack, ability check, etc. roll for you or one of your allies automatically succeed, or make one fial for an enemy.
- Use a spell slot for a spell 2 levels higher (drop the spell that was prepared in the slot for any spell of appropriate level or lower when you use the DIP)
- Spontaneously cast a spell of a level equal to or lower than the highest level spell that you can cast (without using a slow)

Example: Cleric Bob (worshipping Hahvahgoodtime, diety of partying) and his gang are crashing a party, when they notice that the host is an angry red wyrm who wants to eat them. Cleric Bob thinks "Oh, , I'm sunk now" when all three of his allies are dropped from the dragon's breath weapon. Luckily, he has 5 DIPs on hand, and uses them to return conciousness to his three fellow crashers. (1 + 4 x 1/2 = 3). They push themselves bravely off from the ground, only to be smacked back down by a giant scaly tail that just happened to be at the party, too.

comments and questions, please,
-Jeph

 

[Whodat]

Your DIP's sound a little like Force Points in West End Games old STAR WARS game.

Force Points, if I remember correctly, would allow a character to double an attribute (such as strength) for a time. This would allow you a better opportunity to succeed at a difficult and important task, or to absorb damage.

Characters only had so many Force Points, so they had to be careful how they used them. But as I recall, you at least had the opportunity to regain them at the end of an adventure – especially if you used them in a dramatic manner.

 

[Jeph]

Actually, the Force Points from SWD20 gave me the idea. Never played WEG's Star Wars.

In fact, never played anything but DnD, and just started that in 2000. In fact, I believe I was abou -7 years old when oaDnD came out.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

It's an interesting idea and if undead are truly rare/non-existant in your world then it could work.

A few things to keep in mind though:

-You'd need to increase the CR of undead--currently their vulnerability to turning is a major factor in their CR. . . .

-The Sun domain would need a new power.

-As a player, I would be hesitant to exchange an ability that renews itself for one that is usable 1/level--ever.

-As a DM, I would seriously think about some of those thing--prepare a spell two levels higher than you could normally prepare (This will rarely be used because it's generally a poor idea unless you know something really tough is coming up but if you know it's something big and prepare a Summon Monster III at level 1, Poison spell at level 3, Slay Living at level 5, Harm spell at level 7, and Mass Heal or Destruction at Level 9 or Gate at Level 13, the "climactic" encounter that the DM planned will be more like anti-climactic.) Similarly, Spontaneously cast a spell of your highest castable level without using a slot could put some real kinks in your plans as a DM.

Essentially, as a DM, I would either have to plan and make the encounter only winnable through use of the Divine Intervention point (and thereby deprive the player of a limited use "class ability" since I'm forcing him to use it or die) or live with the fact that many of my climactic encountes would turn into anti-climactic encounters due to the use of Divine Intervention points. I'm not sure that would be healthy for a campaign.

Now I'm not saying that Divine Intervention points aren't a workable idea, but I would rather use them as rewards for completing divine quests, heroic sacrifices, etc than as substitutes for class abilities.

In a very low/no undead campaign, I would opt toward replacing Turn Undead with things like:
Barbarian Rage (for a chaotic war god)
Limited Wildshape (Nature god)
Divine Might (Lawful war god)
Divine Vigor (god of speed and running or athleticism)--alternately this could just be increased speed (like Barbarian ability)
Divine Shield (god of walls or protection)
Evasion (and Imp Evasion at lvl 10) for a god of Luck
Uncanny Dodge for a god of knowledge/foresight

You could see the Kalamar Player's Guide for more ideas of this sort (although some are hideously unbalanced).

 

[Corlon]

You can use a DIP to . . .
- Replay the past 2 rounds of game time

...AAAAAAAAAAAAAA

That would be extremely annoying and/or confusing in combat
Example:
Round 1: The Red dragon says "you will die, all of you" and smashes Ivellious the fighter with his tail, Ivellious flies across the room and hits the wall with a loud SMACK, then he slumps to the ground... dead
Corlon the rouge D ) runs around the dragon making a successsion of tumble, climb, and jump checks to get in the perfect spot for flanking the dragon.
Gandin the Palidin Charges in on his warhorse and tries to impale the dragon on his lance he rolls a... 20! and rolls again... 20! enough to hit, but unfortunately he doesn't confirm the instant kill . But even without the instant kill he deals.. 94 damage!!
Then Jozan (I couldn't think of a good cleric name, ), who was just recently getting a soda (or building a pretzel castle, or petting the dog, or otherwise not paying attention) says "wait, who what now, oh, Ivellious is dead, I don't think we want that I want to use my DPI to replay the two rounds of combat."
Then, either the Palidin and Rouge (out of game) leap on the cleric and pumel him to death oorrr everyone gets confused about where their characters where and complain that they're rolls were too good, but because this is a free action, the characters have no chance of stopping it.

Yes yes, I realize this could be handeled many other ways, but I hope you get the point (plus I just had to type something)

As a whole I think this is a pretty good idea, seeing as how you probably don't like the fact that there aren't that many undead in my campaign, well just wait.

OOPS

Mabye every year (for short games where everyhting takes about 30 minutes to complete an entire dungeon) or more, such as 10 or 20 for longer campaigns, your DPI would recharge.

Or mabye do it like force points, you get em if you do selfless, heroic acts. How about give everyone them, and their patron deity would give them this (but they can't say when they want to use these points, just when the DM judges is the right time, such as a lost loved one coming back to life)
If the character didn't have a deity then "fate intervenes"

And just like Star Wars RPG, the clerics would be able to get a BUNCH, while everyone else is stuck with 3 or whatever the number is.

 

[Jeph]

Hmmmm . . . I see the points about them being used to anticlimax, and this could really suck, cuz I invented them to uberatize climaxes. It's meant to be, aaaaah! it all went horribly from round 1! we're doomed! but wait! ClericJo has a DIP! We're saved!

Maybe I could say they are not usable for offensive purposes? They really aren't supposed to be a concious act on the part of the player . . . it's like, oh god he's dead what can we do, no wait he was just hurt he's getting back up. Maybe the GM should determine when they are used?

just typing as I think,
-Jeph

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Hmmmm . . . I see the points about them being used to anticlimax, and this could really suck, cuz I invented them to uberatize climaxes. It's meant to be, aaaaah! it all went horribly from round 1! we're doomed! but wait! ClericJo has a DIP! We're saved!

Maybe I could say they are not usable for offensive purposes? They really aren't supposed to be a concious act on the part of the player . . . it's like, oh god he's dead what can we do, no wait he was just hurt he's getting back up. Maybe the GM should determine when they are used?

just typing as I think,
-Jeph

I think that if you want to uberize climaxes, you could do it in better ways. It seems to me that if you take away undead turning and give the cleric a 1/level DIP that you then force them to regularly use by turning up all your climactic battles to 11, you're taking class abilities away and not giving them anything in return.

Your proposed powers are also quite effective--I think you run the risk making climaxes often come down to "does the cleric have a DIP?" Which could very well be anti-climactic in itself if it means "do over."

One thing you might do if you want to be able to crank up the difficulty is award hero points that can shift any die +/- 1 in the player's favor. If you want to give them campaign appropriate names, you might call them blessings of Torm/Heironeous or whoever the god of heroism is in your world. You wouldn't have to just give them to clerics and paladins; you could give them to characters of any class when they do something especially heroic. If you gave 1 per session or so, it would enable you to crank the difficulty a little bit and still have an escape valve if things got hairy.

 

[Al]

The main problem with the replay two rounds is that it is frighteningly aggravating in terms of bookkeeping. In a large battle, with up to eight combatants (say, four on each side), then two rounds can mean thirty-two actions (Mass Haste on each side) before you even get to complications such as Time Stop. Some of these actions (multiple attacks, blast spells) can affect more than one combatant. Now, whilst starting from round one is probably fine, if used on say round six, then you'd have to keep a log of how the combat is going in each round.

Worse, since the cleric can spring a DIP at any time he feels like it, you'd have to keep a precise log of every round of every battle. If you feel *that* adds to the excitement...

 

[Jeph]

Seems like DIPs are more anti-climax than pro-climax.

I really like EB's idea, however. Fate Points or something. They'd be given out as a reward for being climactic, not to make climaxes more exciting. This, in it's self, will make all the players try to be climactic, to get the holy Fate Point, if only 1 is handed out per session. Damn, the players would be competing to be climactic!

maybe, instead of adjusting a die roll 1 point either direction, allow/force a reroll?

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

maybe, instead of adjusting a die roll 1 point either direction, allow/force a reroll?

It depends on what you want. A reroll is a less predictable effect than +/-1 and may work out better or worse (A reroll also can't stack with itself-- +/-1 could probably stack with itself up to a limit without breaking the game).

Allowing either +/-1 or a reroll with one fate point would be more powerful than either individually but not necessarily game breaking (although allowing rerolls at all would devalue the luck domain ability--not too much though if fate points remain relatively rare).