Divine Metamagic Feat

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I don't build NPCs like that. That's metagaming.

Bye
Thanee

That's why I don't let NPCs use it either

 

[Old Gumphrey]

There are more than 2 or 3 things wrongs with Complete Divine.

My bad, 4 or 5. That wasn't my point anyway, the number of things wrong with a given book is not relevant. What is relevant is that you can allow anything balanced from any book and your game will stay balanced. But since you bring it up, what else is wrong with CD, other than Divine Metamagic, a couple spells, and possibly the Wild feats (PrCs don't count, as those have wildly different functions between campaigns, and having broken PrCs is par for the course for this very reason).

 

[James McMurray]

The thing is that its easier to simply say "book X does not exist" than it is to cull the wheat from the chaff. Most DMs don't have the time to examine every piece of every book and try to discover problems with it. If a book is known to have lots of balance issues (such as BoVD and BoED) its easier to just say "nope, those don't exist".

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

My bad, 4 or 5. That wasn't my point anyway, the number of things wrong with a given book is not relevant. What is relevant is that you can allow anything balanced from any book and your game will stay balanced. But since you bring it up, what else is wrong with CD, other than Divine Metamagic, a couple spells, and possibly the Wild feats (PrCs don't count, as those have wildly different functions between campaigns, and having broken PrCs is par for the course for this very reason).

PrCs are large part of the book though. Why waste so much space on filler, if it's really supposed to be filler?

However, I'm very annoyed at Pious Spellsurge and several old problems.

Pious Spellsurge is a way to boost your save DCs. The DnD team went out of their way to fix the save DC problem. They tried boosting monster saves and they even took responsibility for other abuses, such as Greater Spell Focus and Spell Power. So it's more than a little irritating to see them suddenly forget this and crank the DCs just to sell the book. It's part of their pattern of deliberately boosting the power level, and so far (other than some of the PrCs) I haven't seen anything that doesn't crank the power level.

Improved Metamagic is an old problem. WotC went out of its way to fix the 3.0 incantatrix, but decided to forget about it in 3.5 and just boost the power level again.

With the amount of overpowered material in the book, I don't have the time or inclination to "separate the chaff from the wheat" as James put it.

 

[Old Gumphrey]

Wait..you don't have the time to do that, but you have time to debate in a 5 page thread about something that is never going to be in your games? That sounds strange to me.

Anyway, I don't really care what other people do for their games...if people want to go 'core only', be my guest. I would play in such a game. I just don't believe that "people who want more toys" are the only ones that use books aside from core. I wouldn't want to invalidate anyone's purchase just because I don't feel like reading a few paragraphs, but at the same time I don't throw the doors open on any book whatsoever, core included. Just my style I guess.

EDIT: I also note that there's still only a few things that can be named that are disturbingly broken. Don't want high DCs? Don't allow it. How much effort does it really take? :/

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Wait..you don't have the time to do that, but you have time to debate in a 5 page thread about something that is never going to be in your games? That sounds strange to me.

This takes a lot less effort and time than balancing a campaign. I mean, really, typing a post takes about 2 minutes or less. (I type fast, too.)

As for balancing stuff, let's see... look at the Entropomancer. It's giving up 5 caster levels for virtually nothing. Do you know how long it takes to playtest a PrC? You're supposed to playtest it over all 10 levels. And do something about that stupid Sphere of Annihilation ability - replace it with something. Now you have to test that too. Now you find the class is overpowered. Is it because you gave it too many caster levels, or is that new ability overpowered? Maybe it's not that strong but you get it too many times per day. Maybe they should be using the ability more than spellcasting... forget it. The large number of playtesters who worked on the class should have had their concerns heeded, assuming it was even playtested. (Lots of stuff in books doesn't get tested, which is pretty sad.)

Anyway, I don't really care what other people do for their games...if people want to go 'core only', be my guest. I would play in such a game. I just don't believe that "people who want more toys" are the only ones that use books aside from core.

Neither do I. I don't recall saying something inflammatory like "only munchkins use splatbooks".

I wouldn't want to invalidate anyone's purchase just because I don't feel like reading a few paragraphs

More than a few. Everything I've seen, and I mean everything, would have to get rewritten to fit into a campaign that's as powerful as the core rules.

but at the same time I don't throw the doors open on any book whatsoever, core included. Just my style I guess.

I can't think of any book I've allowed in 100%, but there are a lot where nearly everything gets in.

EDIT: I also note that there's still only a few things that can be named that are disturbingly broken. Don't want high DCs? Don't allow it. How much effort does it really take? :/

There's more. I'll have to go through my notes, but that will take more than two minutes.

(PS this is an example of multitasking. I'm watching the Canadian election results right now. I can't do that while balancing a campaign. )

 

[Votan]

Good advice there!

However, Sudden is only 1/day, that's a pretty big limit.

Bye
Thanee

Divine metamagic:

a) does not stack with other magic so maximized, sudden empowered is more powerful than is possible with DMM

b) It takes at least 2 feats (using the errata'ed version of the feat or with a proper reading of the original -- requires metamagic feat plus DMM(MMF)) for something that is probably 1/day as well. With a weak metamagic feat (silent), a very high CHA or more feats (extra turning) it might be possible to get 2/day for 2 feats.

Qucken, for example, takes 5 turn attempts. That is a 14 CHA or a third feat (extra turning) just to use 1/day. An 18 CHA caster (base 7) will be able to do 2/day with 3 feats, 3/day for 4 feats and 4/day with 6 feats and that is only possible with 18 CHA; a 10 CHA caster needs 3 feats for 1/day and 4 feats for 2/day and 6 feats for 3/day.

A non human cleric has 7 feats at 20th level (if you are human you get 8).

This requires making DMM a major focus for a limited number of uses per day; I would allow this without a qualm.

 

[rushlight]

Wait..you don't have the time to do that, but you have time to debate in a 5 page thread about something that is never going to be in your games? That sounds strange to me.

You'd be suprised at how close "work" and "enworld" appear to the casual observer...

Anyway, I find it's much easier to just boot the whole book and save everyone $30 than to spend the cash and eliminate two-thirds of it. Perhaps unlike others, I'm not wallowing in cash. I must be descriminate of my gaming purchases, and I like to get the most out of what I buy. Buying CD, then chopping out all the PrCs (which I don't like) and most of the feats (Divine metamagic? Wizards casting cure spells?) is just not cost effective.

 

[Thanee]

a) does not stack with other magic so maximized, sudden empowered is more powerful than is possible with DMM

Really? Why is that?

b) It takes at least 2 feats (using the errata'ed version of the feat or with a proper reading of the original -- requires metamagic feat plus DMM(MMF)) for something that is probably 1/day as well. With a weak metamagic feat (silent), a very high CHA or more feats (extra turning) it might be possible to get 2/day for 2 feats.

Well, 12 Cha.

But Quicken is expensive for sure, OTOH, if you are going to pick DMM you'll also have a decent Charisma (which is otherwise only moderately useful, so that's not too bad as an equalizer).

Sudden Quicken is basically impossible to get, so in comparison DMM: Quicken is extremely potent.

But yeah, both are not that bad in comparison overall, that's right.

So, if Sudden is ok, DMM probably is ok, too. Or both are not (because they break the spell level cap). Doesn't really work any other way, I think.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Bauglir]

Personally I go with "both are not".

I don't generally find the "once a day smackdown" style abilities (such as these) to be good for balance.